| VadaH Posts: 9 Registered: 12-23-2011 Message 301 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63605549 02-05-2012 07:35 PM Thank you so much Gina, it is lovely with all the pictures and a table of contents and the Nameless Monster afterword(yeah, I admit it, I skipped straight to that ;-)) That afterword was wonderfully creepy. I must say, when the guy mentioned that the one who sought the sketches sat beside a world leader it made me think of Johan when he was next to Schubert/Shuwald(it is Schubert isn't it?), though I can't believe that it would be Johan(though the idea that the bastard understudy could be involved isn't too far fetched, though I don't think Johan actually had any intentions of doing anything with him, much less ruling the world). Starting up the reading groups again, sheesh, though I can't help but think that if they go after Fuhr, it will end up like the Awakening Monster. Chomp chomp, much munch, gobble gobble, gulp.... indeed! ::heart:: |
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TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 302 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63605549 02-05-2012 07:38 PM LOL, that's a pretty funny clip! Anyway...
EDIT: Oh and in honor of your cousin theory... (Note: I've actually never heard of this show. I just remember Joey from Full House singing this and I came across the source material.) |
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GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 303 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to VadaH - Message ID#: 63606895 02-05-2012 07:58 PM It's actually Schuwald. After dealing with the katakana in the names, I finally understand why there is confusion about it, on both sides of the language (even in the poster for the library event, it clearly says Schubert in the original artwork). In German the w = v when pronounced, and in Japanese v = b. Likewise the German d at the end of the name is pronounced as a t. And then there's the L/R substitution in Japanese, and on top of all that, the fact that the seiyuu pronounced it as Shuberto. So Schuwald morphs into Schubert by the time you cross languages and phonetics. (this reminds me of the song "Samurai Heart" which is also called "Some Like it Hot," since the pronunciation of those English words is virtually the same for the Japanese. :D) Viz translated it as Schuwald, so I imagine that they talked that over with the authors to be sure. To me it seems like it could've gone either way. :) I hope you read the last paragraph of the preamble though, since there was a little bit about the afterword there. :) |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 304 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 63606937 02-05-2012 08:05 PM TophBeiFong wrote:
Yeah, haven't given up on the idea yet. Not clinging quite as tightly to it, but still digging in. :D |
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| VadaH Posts: 9 Registered: 12-23-2011 Message 305 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63607403 02-05-2012 08:19 PM That is so wild, it is like they can't agree with themselves, as you said it is Schuwald in the manga, but in the original anime the poster says Schubert(in the Viz edition, I read they digitally changed the poster so it read Schuwald). I wonder why Urasawa didn't use the Japanese Kana for va (ヴァ) which he used for an inspector in the first volume (which Viz spelt Visbaugh, v=f so Viz's name would be fisbaugh or fizbaugh, when it should have been Weissbach, or Weissbaugh based on the pronunciation). You would think they would double check name spellings(heck even the Japanese site for the manga spells Johan's last name as Liebheart, while the Japanese anime booklet spells it Liebert), or maybe they spelt it different on purpose. I think Urasawa should have put out a spelling guide, since he did so much research on this, you would think he would know how it should be spelt in German. |
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Killbot2000 Posts: 3,739 Registered: 01-06-2005 Message 306 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 02-05-2012 08:19 PM WTF?! WHy didn't I know Monster had a sequel?! |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 307 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to VadaH - Message ID#: 63608685 02-05-2012 10:04 PM I'm still wondering why all the name spelling changes between AM and the commentary in 2008! :) |
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JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 308 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63609801 02-08-2012 03:41 PM With regards to Schuwald's name, there were some inconsistencies in the English translation of the manga, where he was referred to as "Schubert", which is still very much a German name. But "Liebheart"? I've heard of "Liebhart", but never that alternate spelling....I think Liebhart is Austrian, though. But I did find this: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Liebheart. I must say, the Spanish fans of Monster created a very consistent page for Johan's character alone, something the English fans failed to do on their wikipedia, with that small, shameful little paragraph under Johan's name :(. Did the Spanish translation refer to him as "Johan Liebheart"? | ||
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 309 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 63608685 02-08-2012 08:01 PM I don't have all the chapters in Spanish, but Nina's chapter is always spelled Liebheart, while there is one instance where the twins are referred to as Liebert. Which I supposed constitutes a typo. :) |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 310 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63649079 02-19-2012 05:13 AM | ||
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 311 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 63780589 02-19-2012 12:53 PM Was that a bump, or did you hit post too soon? :D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 312 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63782717 02-19-2012 08:12 PM I'll bump. *bumps* College work blows. *stupid psych class* By the way, I want to mention that my previous theory about Bonaparta wanting to see which kid Jomama picked was unfounded. I found out that she was originally referring to both children. Though perhaps what I was remembering was a dub alteration or something. Dang, I liked that idea too. :( EDIT: Crap, what I wanted to post is not working now. I'll try it again... |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 313 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 63912479 03-01-2012 08:12 PM I was inspired to do this when I saw a video doing something similar with another show. (Hetalia and becoming one with Russia, specifically.) So let's see what Cleverbot thinks about The Nameless Monster... User: Look at me! Look at me! The monster inside me is about to explode! Cleverbot: What is THE monster? User: I shall tell you. Once upon a time, there was a nameless monster... Cleverbot: But I want to hear YOUR story. User: You're getting it. The monster was dying to have a name... Cleverbot: Twas brilig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogroves and the mome raths outgrabe. User: Jabberwocky. Nice. Will you give me your name? If you give me your name, I will make you human. Cleverbot: No, I told you my name is Cleverbot. User: May I have the name Cleverbot? Cleverbot: Yeah, I know. User: What do you know? Cleverbot: I know you don't want to do that. User: I want your name. May I be called Cleverbot? Cleverbot: How can I call you? User: Cleverbot. Cleverbot: What about it? User: I want that name. Cleverbot: Why? It's ugly! User: No, it's a wonderful name. I have no name... Cleverbot: Yes it is. User: Then may I take your name? Cleverbot: My name is Cleverbot. What is yours? User: I have no name. Cleverbot: No name? User: No, I do not have a name. That is why I want yours. Cleverbot: ¿Quién te enseño español? User: No quiero hablar espanol. Queiro tu nombre. Cleverbot: ¿porque? User: I have no name. Cleverbot: Aha seeeeehr interessandt. User: I am nameless. Cleverbot: Are you serious? Well my name is Cleverbot. User: Yes, I am serious. Cleverbot: When can we get married? It's a shame that the other one was lost, because it said that if you're nameless, you're not a person. Oddly fitting with the show. :D |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 314 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 63518035 03-04-2012 11:47 AM You made me realize I never replied to this! I had intended to look up the scene and didn't get around to it. But it looks like you beat me to it yourself. :) TophBeiFong wrote: InTheGarden's not dead! Yay! XD So, what kind of discrepancies? Does it have to do with events or dates? If it's dates, then we can attribute that to Writers Can't Do Math. :P Yeah, it's all dates, since we were doing a timeline. One that seems important is that Garden says the manga (or anime - she was going through both, I think. I'll just say manga for now) puts the twins at the Czech border in 1984, while the novel implies that it was between 1981 - 83, depending on what month they were found (probably Nov - March given the weather), since Wolfe says they were 6 or 7 and they were born in May of 1975. But if it was as late as 1984, that barely gives two years between being found and being taken to W. Germany, which I guess is long enough, but it seems like they were in the orphanages longer, and at a younger age to begin with. Also, the Red Rose massacre was in 81, and 3 years seems like a long time for them to be wandering around, whereas a year or two longer in the orphanages seems more reasonable. Also the novel clearly puts the K511 massacre in 1986, while the manga says 85. Likewise, the Munich library fire was in 1996, while the novel has it in 1997. I swear, for a story that relies so much on concurrent events and timelines, you'd think Urasawa could've been more consistent about his dates. Then again, since he was putting out a manga over several years while trying to meet a schedule, instead of writing one story and looking it all over before final publication, I guess such discrepancies are bound to happen. It's like all the name changes between the book and the storybook afterword. I guess he decided to correct things while he could, but even so, there are still problems with dates in the anime (e.g., dates on tombstones, and the dub just made it even worse with their adjustments, with dates in dialog not matching what can be seen onscreen even as they speak!). |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 315 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 63921739 03-04-2012 12:10 PM Heh, I tried the Cleverbot thing, but couldn't figure out how to get the sort of dialog you showed. When I pasted in your Look at me! quote, and hit Think about it, the first thing it mentioned was "the doctor"! I forget now what it said exactly, but clearly it was referencing some past conversations about Monster, even if it didn't know how to use it intelligently. :) I also went to the link with the woman's voice? and she also seemed to recognize the reference after a fashion. :) Again, I don't remember, because there didn't seem to be a way to save the whole conversation, or review it past a couple of lines. Still, pretty funny. :) There should be almost 60 people posting in this thread by now! Where are they? I just can't understand how people can read that book and not want to come here to at least say, "wtf??" :-D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 316 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 63958941 03-09-2012 06:16 PM Urasawa is an Asian man who can't do math. :O *gets slapped for horrible joke* And yeah, where is everyone? JohanT and JohnJacobSchmidt seem to have disappeared without a trace. I'm guessing VadaH is waiting on her husband to finish the series. And all the other people you sent this never even bothered. ...Hmm, I wonder how loud an echo I can make? *yells* Anyway, just to keep the conversation going, something occurred to me about Lipsky's mother. This will seem pretty obvious, but I had my mind on other things regarding this series, most of which I've mentioned here. Anyway, the goverment wanted to study her because of her acting ability. They claimed that she could become the roles that she played. This led me to believe that the project in Kinderheim wasn't just about fostering aggressiveness and argumentative skills to tear down your opposition. Rather, they wanted someone with a malleable idenity...someone who could be told to become anything the government wanted, not just soldiers. As for the RRM experiments, they were trying to find someone with the capability to shape those identities. (Which I guess I was sort of aware of before, but I thought I'd mention it.) ...Freakin' scary. |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 317 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64018627 03-10-2012 05:13 AM TophBeiFong wrote: Urasawa is an Asian man who can't do math. :O *gets slapped for horrible joke* And yeah, where is everyone? JohanT and JohnJacobSchmidt seem to have disappeared without a trace. I'm guessing VadaH is waiting on her husband to finish the series. And all the other people you sent this never even bothered. ...Hmm, I wonder how loud an echo I can make? *yells* Anyway, just to keep the conversation going, something occurred to me about Lipsky's mother. This will seem pretty obvious, but I had my mind on other things regarding this series, most of which I've mentioned here. Anyway, the goverment wanted to study her because of her acting ability. They claimed that she could become the roles that she played. This led me to believe that the project in Kinderheim wasn't just about fostering aggressiveness and argumentative skills to tear down your opposition. Rather, they wanted someone with a malleable idenity...someone who could be told to become anything the government wanted, not just soldiers. As for the RRM experiments, they were trying to find someone with the capability to shape those identities. (Which I guess I was sort of aware of before, but I thought I'd mention it.) ...Freakin' scary. *runs in, panting* Guys! Ok, ok, sorry for the long absence. I got lost, what with the new installations google has incorporated into its systems. Luckily, Toph's echo allowed me to find my way. For that, I thank you. Oh, and of course, the school work has been as demanding as ever. If it were to be personified as a human, it would be a nagging mother-in-law. And I have to agree with your interpretaion of the experiment, Toph. And I think it also applies to Bonaparta's interest in the mother of the twins. Though she did not transform herself through acting and appearance, she did so through her voice and music. The mimicry of all singers must have been appealing to Bonaparta, as those voices were all but her own. | ||
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 318 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 64023897 03-10-2012 11:24 AM Yay, you're not dead yet! ;) I just think it's pretty sad (never mind the creepy) that Bonaparta married her just because he was interested in her personality transformations. Although I guess Lipsky imagines he cared for her, I have trouble believing he did at that point of his life. Or rather, whatever feelings he had for her weren't for her as a person, but his love for his own experiments, just like with Anna, and even the twins. That whole family is just so messed up from grandfather on down. I just hope if Lipsky has some kids with his new girlfriend he can break the chain of crazy. I think I mentioned this way back when I was re-reading his chapter, but I just can't help imagining his girlfriend as Shelley Duvall as she was in The Shining. ^.^ They'd make a perfect couple. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 319 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64025291 03-10-2012 12:29 PM By the way, someone linked me to this blog (I almost have a vague notion that I might've mentioned it, or maybe Toph did? and yet I don't remember having seen it before. oO), but I can't link to it because the filter will corrupt it: http://f**kyeahjohanliebert.tumblr.com/ Just fill in the obvious. ;) It has some awesome fanart, and some hilarious stuff as well, so keep clicking on more at the bottom (about half of the pics are also in the character tags sections). :) Also...can't unsee. :-D Click on the words and see what happens. Robot is my favorite. >.< |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 320 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 64023897 03-10-2012 03:15 PM JohanT wrote: *runs in, panting* Guys! Ok, ok, sorry for the long absence. I got lost, what with the new installations google has incorporated into its systems. Luckily, Toph's echo allowed me to find my way. For that, I thank you. Oh, and of course, the school work has been as demanding as ever. If it were to be personified as a human, it would be a nagging mother-in-law. And I have to agree with your interpretaion of the experiment, Toph. And I think it also applies to Bonaparta's interest in the mother of the twins. Though she did not transform herself through acting and appearance, she did so through her voice and music. The mimicry of all singers must have been appealing to Bonaparta, as those voices were all but her own. My schoolwork is...A MONSTER!!! *rimshot* Anyway, I was thinking along the same lines as you regarding Jomama, but it's not just her singing. The whole dead twin thing fits with that theme as well. Bonaparta truly did have an obession with controlling people...shaping people... |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 321 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64025909 03-10-2012 03:22 PM *gasps for air* :-D :-D :-D ...That's the hardest I've laughed in a long time. That made my day! XDDDDDDDD Oh, and here's another amusing video involving Johan (and Tenma) dancing: http://erich-springer.livejournal.com/10123.html |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 322 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64027471 03-10-2012 04:03 PM But holy crap, I got an email from KrillXIII today! I think we might hear from him soon. :D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 323 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64027839 03-10-2012 04:26 PM Huh, I wasn't registered at NicoNico either, but I could still watch it. I changed it because I wanted to link to the blog I found it at, which has a lot of nice fanart as well. And yes, I also noticed that there was a Russian translation of AM on there. And from Google translate, it seems as if he also has a guide comparing the cities portrayed in Monster to their real life counterparts. Yay, maybe another person! Didn't he make this thread for you? :P |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 324 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64028087 03-10-2012 04:41 PM Yeah, that's why I was happy. He had some great stuff to say in the Monster thread, so I'm sure he'll have some good insights into AM too. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 325 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64028333 03-11-2012 06:00 PM Excellent blog. Too bad he stopped after 15-16. Still, very much worth the read. |
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| KrillXIII Posts: 62 Registered: 01-25-2010 Message 326 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64027839 03-11-2012 08:43 PM I've got a somewhat busy week this week, but all major commitments will be out of the way by Thursday. The following week is Spring break. If I haven't finished Another Monster and posted something here within a week's time, you have permission to harass me with foul language via e-mail. If I haven't done either two weeks from now, you have permission to undertake whatever punishment you can manage ;) |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 327 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 64044895 03-11-2012 09:17 PM I'm holding you to that! Welcome back to your thread. ;D |
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Jadefire79 Posts: 2 Registered: 03-06-2012 Message 328 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64045453 03-12-2012 02:48 PM Hi everyone, thanks to Gina I could finally read the complete Another Monster translation and will post some of my thoughts. I've tried to read the whole thread but whoa, so many pages here and I didn't have time to read everything. So I guess I'll probably say things that were already discussed, hope you don't mind. Ok, first thing I think the sketch is Johan and it seems to indicate he woke up. That would also explain why Führ did this manuscript The Awakening Monster, maybe he was the one that brought Johan back, maybe by telling him his name. I think the names play a large role in the story, for example when General Wolf named him Johan it triggered something within him (I don't remember who said this in the anime, I guess it was Wolf himself.) But it could also be Tenma, he knew Johan's true name too and I think he said it to him in the hospital although we never saw it in the manga or anime. And about Johan's view about Tenma after he woke up: I think it's important that Tenma has forgiven him. In the Ruhenheim episodes Nina said something like if she hadn't shot him all this wouldn't have happened. That it was important that Johan needed forgiveness. That's also a reason why Nina asked Tenma not to kill Johan. It was too late for her to forgive him but it seemed important that at least Tenma didn't act like Nina. So my guess is after waking up Johan wouldn't try to commit suicide but live his life again. But I'm not so sure if he would still be out there killing people or playing with their lives. It's kinda interesting which role Führ plays here, maybe he has become Johan's partner or they have a teacher/student relationship, I dunno. I don't think that Führ met Weber on his own, Johan must have been with him. Führ also seems to be very careful and secretive and to me it seems out of character for him to follow Weber alone (although to him Weber wouldn't pose a huge threat.) And Johan can't be Führ, the deep voice doesn't quite fit. The next question is, why they would leave such a sketch behind and I think, it could be meant as a message to everyone who is related to Johan (to Nina or Tenma). Johan would leave messages behind if he wanted to so it's not unlikely (think about the written messages he left behind for Tenma). One thing I'd like to know are the last pages with this interview where someone got Poppe's sketches and was told to burn them. I don't know who these secret guys could be. It could be Johan of course, again trying to erase his past or evidence of his existence. But the world leader thing is kinda odd cos that would be something Sievernich would be after, he always wanted to become a politician and rule the world. This is really confusing and I'd like to know what you guys think about that. |
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PsychoKrusher Posts: 1 Registered: 03-12-2012 Message 329 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 03-12-2012 10:43 PM Wow. First and foremost, I would like to thank Gina for a splendid job translating this work. I am amazed at the effort you've put into this. I don't think I can thank you enough. Tears of manliness were shed for you and your work. I will go back and review this thread, hopefully to find answers to my own questions. I will definitely share my thoughts once I'm finished with that. Once again, thanks Gina and to everyone else that helped out!!! *Manly tears* |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 330 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Jadefire79 - Message ID#: 64053365 03-13-2012 08:34 PM Yay! Welcome to the thread everybody! This is exciting! :D And Krusher, there's no crying in Monster! Oh wait... Jadefire79 wrote: But it could also be Tenma, he knew Johan's true name too and I think he said it to him in the hospital although we never saw it in the manga or anime. I had not considered that before (or else I've forgotten if someone else brought it up before. I have a Swiss cheese memory >.<). I think it's been speculated that Tenma did tell him his name, but I like the idea that that could've been the catalyst to awaken him. It's almost like just hearing Tenma's voice is enough to do the trick. :) I think we're all agreed that Johan isn't Führ, but there's still a theory that Johan might've been impersonating him on the phone. If you go back to post 294, you'll find the start of what we've had to say about the interview so far. There's not much, yet. :) Around post 92 is where the discussion starts to kick in, so if you skim some of those posts, you're questions won't be answered, but you can see what's been suggested and such. It's not that I don't want to rehash stuff, not at all, but I think my thoughts were a little more coherent while it was all fresh in my mind. :) Btw, at this point now, we've sort of dispensed with spoiler tags, since anyone who gets this far has probably already read it, and I keep puttung it in the subject line for good measure. |
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| Jadefire79 Posts: 2 Registered: 03-06-2012 Message 331 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64073645 03-14-2012 01:04 PM @ Gina thanks, I've read the parts about the interview and will read the whole thread when I have more time again. :) This last interview really is very confusing, with the whole world leader thing, the sketches burning and the revival of the Red Rose mansion reading sessions. I still think that Sievernich is somehow involved in this, he's the only character who would be interested in ruling the world ( Johan had planted this idea in his head when he was a kid and if I recall that scene in the anime where Sievernich was talking to Martin, he seemed very enthusiastic about it, kinda childish too. And although his reputation is ruined because of the whole Johan affair, his family/company still has a lot of power and thanks to his connections to the Baby/Capek group he's probably in charge of the remains of their group or he still holds some influence there. Just speculation of course ). The sketches stuff seems like something Johan or Führ would do, trying to destroy everything related to Bonaparta etc. And it also seems very Johan-ish to tell the bidder to use the name of Weber. Lunge always said that Johan tried to make fun of people, Tenma once said something like this too after reading one of Johan's messages. But I don't know why Sievernich or Johan&Führ would want to bring back the reading sessions. Someone here said it could be Weindler's editor and that would make sense since he liked the reading to children idea. I wonder if Johan, Sievernich, Führ and the editor would all work together but that's unlikely again cos Johan wouldn't support anyone. About Johan as Führ on the phone: it can be a possibility, Johan had no problems to impersonate his sister so he wouldn't have problems changing his voice as Führ. But the question is, why would he do that? Did he kill Führ? I don't think he would, he seems to spare all the people who were victims of Kinderheim 511 and the Red Rose Mansion readings. He had so many chances to kill Grimmer or he could've killed Lipsky if he wanted too. And Roberto and Sievernich were his allies and he'd probably use Führ as a partner too instead of killing him. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 332 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Jadefire79 - Message ID#: 64081463 03-14-2012 04:48 PM Jadefire79 wrote: Someone here said it could be Weindler's editor and that would make sense since he liked the reading to children idea. That would be me. ^_^ ...I suggested Sievernich as well, but I don't think he's the politician now. (He's got a lot of influence in Germany and possibly in the world economy, but he's hardly a famous world leader and I don't think Sievernich has held any political office...yet.) It's still possible that he could have funded the purchase of the sketches, but there's not enough evidence either way. I do think the editor guy is an interesting possibility, as it would be just like Urasawa to have some random person be significant. At the same time, I don't think Fuhr is involved, as they're actually looking for Fuhr. Nor do I believe Johan is involved, unless this is some complicated scheme of his and creating another reading group would be to his advantage somehow. It's unclear why they wanted the sketches destroyed, but a possibility could be that they're trying to erase all evidence of Bonaparta's experiments so that no one can find out what they're up to...maybe. *shrugs* I'm really not sure. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 333 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64083667 03-17-2012 10:51 AM The editor Kiener just seems too much of a skeevy wimp to me to get that involved in this. I mean, look at him! He looks like he's afraid he's going to get punched if he raises his eyes. I wish we knew more about the outcome of Sievernich's troubles. While it does seem odd to me that he would want the reading circles started up again (when he was so damaged by them personally), he could be crazy enough to do it anyway. He's obviously not the world leader, but if his reputation hadn't sustained enough damage to rub off on the leader, I could see him getting next to such a person to influence them. I think the motivation for destroying them would be to hinder anyone trying to find Anna, who could corroborate the crimes committed by Bonaparta. While Weber had already exposed it all pretty much, having one of the victims (a sympathetic mother figure) come forward would be irreparable to the cause. (oh god, here she goes again...) If it were the fabled evil cousin, he might want them destroyed to prevent anyone who knew his mother from recognizing her (since she would look like the sketches) and outing her, and thereby him... ^.^ |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 334 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64118085 03-17-2012 12:15 PM Looks can be deceiving, you know... >: D But yeah, if Sievernich is involved at all, he is the one who got that guy to buy the sketches for him and the one next to the world leader on TV. ...And I think he was just in Kinderheim, not in the reading circles. (Same difference, I suppose.) I do like your reason for destroying the sketches, however. That makes more sense. *sings Patty Duke Show theme* |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 335 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64118737 03-17-2012 12:42 PM I guess I was under the impression that K511 used the books in their program too, but maybe not. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 336 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64118969 03-17-2012 12:54 PM Actually, yeah, I think they did. I recall something about Erna Tietze saying that she got kids that were kicked out of Kinderheim and they screamed whenever books were read. That's why I said same difference. :P The thing is though is that I don't like the idea of another person Tenma saved being involved in this. The poor guy has had enough. ...Can I just imagine that if Sievernich is involved, Fuhr ends up killing him or the whole thing ends up being exposed without Tenma finding out about it beforehand? XD |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 337 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64119075 03-17-2012 01:14 PM I never thought he was involved in the first place. :) I was just allowing that there was nothing definitive to rule it out, if that was your theory. But your reason for not wanting him involved now is one I approve. :D Oh yeah, I forgot she confirmed that they used the books. Good memory! I am feeling this weird itch to watch Monster again followed up by Another Monster with a whole new thread of viewers and readers who have already seen it and read it. :D But I think the likelihood of getting that organized or getting much participation is nil. ::sigh:: |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 338 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64119297 03-17-2012 01:46 PM Heh, if it ever airs on Syfy again, maybe you could start another thread. (Well, I think they aired a few before phasing out anime...which is a shame, since that's the only channel I get that had any anime. I would watch what they have up on YouTube, as I never finished Noein, for instance, but I'm kinda lazy.) I'd love to do some MST3King for fun. XD |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 339 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64119627 03-17-2012 02:09 PM All the episodes are available on Viz's site. Unless you can't watch their streams for some reason (like dial-up or region block). |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 340 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64119847 03-17-2012 02:49 PM Yeah, I knew that. It's just that if there are going to be new viewers, it would be better to have them watching it on television so that there would be a certain limit for spoliers to be discussed. ...Though maybe it could be organized to one episode a week from Viz/YouTube or something. *shrugs* But yeah, I doubt anyone would pay any attention to it to the extent of the original Syfy thread. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 341 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64120175 03-17-2012 03:23 PM That's the thing though. I'd want the thread to be spoilers welcome. Encouraged. Necessary! So first-time viewers should organize their own thread (just such a thread started recently, but apparently fizzled out already), or go read the Sci-Fi thread. :) It's like a zillion times there were thoughts and comments I wanted to make in that thread, but couldn't, even with spoiler tags, which just gum up a thread anyway when everything has to be tagged (witness the early part of this discussion. :) ), and people start arguing over what is a spoiler and what isn't. I'd just like a free, don't worry about spoiling, say what comes to mind, viewing thread. :) But as I said, I don't see that happening at this point. Oh well. :) |
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| KrillXIII Posts: 62 Registered: 01-25-2010 Message 342 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64045453 03-17-2012 10:03 PM Just finished the book. It's late so I'll read the thread tomorrow. I have some thoughts rumbling around, though they are only broad and big-picture. I reckon it will take a second or third read to figure out exactly what's implied in the text, especially near the end. Piecing that together will hopefully stop the ping-ponging I'm having about whether or not Another Monster is an organic extension of the original series or an artifical appendage. Parts of it fit extraordinarily well, other parts feel iffy. If any of it is supposed to imply that Johan is back, I will be very unhappy. While I am perfectly open to the idea of the various machinations that produced Johan still whirring away, Johan's story is and should remain closed. I think there is good textual reason to suppose that The Awakening Monster does not allude to Johan. The entirety of Another Monster, for one, seems bent on painting a picture of a much more abstract Monster. Further, while I forget which part this is exactly, but it's suggested that when Johan discovers The Nameless Monster in the Munich library, he no longer identifies with it. If there are any Monster-Figures in human personage, they would be Bonaparta and Führ, though I am not convinced that is a correct reading either. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 343 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 64126389 03-18-2012 11:40 AM @Gina-Whoops, misread your post! That happens to me a lot. @Krill-I never thought much about the meaning of the title. ...Perhaps it's meant to show that the "monster" will always be looming around us, just appearing in different forms? *shrugs* |
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| KrillXIII Posts: 62 Registered: 01-25-2010 Message 344 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 64126389 03-18-2012 12:19 PM Finished reading the thread now. Good Lord! There is absolutely no way I'm going to be able to keep 90% of what was said in mind. There has been a lot of discussion. Especially regarding some of the more abstract interpretation, such as of the function of names in the series. I'll probably end up focusing my responses to this thread on certain concrete narrative issues (e.g. Anna's twin's status, the 'cousin', Johan's awakening). Any big-picture stuff, I'm sorry to say, will just involve me blithely ignoring what's been said in the hopes that others will respond with their ideas at which point I can then respond directly. Of course, if anyone wants to write a summary that would be most helpful ;) |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 345 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 64132267 03-18-2012 04:26 PM At this point in my life, I'm mostly interested in what happened. :) I'm not uninterested in the motivations and symbolism, but it's not a priority at this time. But I'm grateful for any discussion. ^.^ I don't think a summary is in the cards, at least not from me. I just spent all afternoon fighting with my printer trying to print out a hard copy of this beast. Ended up running out of paper. >.< I think I do remember that you did not want Johan to wake up. But I think he did. I just don't think he's the one out there reving up the havoc machine again. :) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 346 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 64132267 03-18-2012 10:11 PM @Krill: I have trouble remembering what I even said. :D ...I don't know, I just feel as if there's some greater meaning that no one has gotten to yet, and all we have is just a big 'ol pile of ideas. I'm not sure if I should be the one to attempt a summary or not. While I have spring break this week as well, I'm already shirking from my schoolwork enough as it is. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 347 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64140635 03-28-2012 08:09 PM Is everyone passed out from Spring break? ^.^ TophBeiFong wrote: I have trouble remembering what I even said. :D Oy, same here. >.< Been re-reading from the beginning of the novel, and had some random thoughts that might be shaping up into something. But before I throw some of those out, I found a really stupid mistake on page 131. It should read, "I had eavesdropped when Čapek, the man in glasses, spoke on the phone." As it is, I have him talking to himself on the phone. I don't know what it is with me and telephones. ::facepalm:: In Lunge's chapter, he goes into a speech that pretty much sums up the whole novel. :) Because both of them hold such gigantic things inside themselves, they are never satisfied, and they will never give up until they see their dreams realized. The greater the hopes and wishes inside of a person, the more they are capable of achieving greatness or of becoming terrible criminals. Holding dreams is an ability granted at birth, but whether or not one is capable of bringing those aspirations to bloom depends on one's environment. It depends on whether someone tells you that you have the right to live or not." I was noticing how the story that Johan (presumably) told the children of K511 is essentially "The Sleeping Monster." How did Wiendler get hold of it? Or did he tell it first at the RRM, in which case, how did Johan hear it? Did both of them hear it from Bonaparta? Or did they independently create basically the same story (it's been known to happen)? I want to know what "My Garden" is about. :) (Lotte has a copy of it when Weber interviews her) I thought it was funny that Ranke got all snarky about the term "secret police," and then proceeded to use the term himself repeatedly. I also still get a laugh out of the idea that Kottman wasn't on the police's radar because they limited their list to "axe killers guilty of sexual crimes," like the list of axe murderers had more than two people on it to begin with. :D We've wondered for a long time when and why Anna just seemed to abandon the twins, but I wonder if the answer hasn't been staring us in the face all along and we didn't see it because it seemed out of character for her. In Bonaparta's love letter he clearly states, "You left me with beautiful jewels. Those two eternal twins." Now it seems like Bonaparta is the last person in the world Anna would leave her kids with, but maybe by then his brainwashing had taken hold enough for that to happen (like the Charter 77 activists doing 180 degree turns after he got hold of them). It seems like she came back to tell them they'd have to be on their own before she left, but maybe she was able to leave because she was told Bonaparta would be keeping watch, even if from a distance (and brainwashed, could accept this). Yeah, I'm reaching, but it's slightly more plausible to me than her just ditching them, and it explains the line in his letter. Otherwise, I'd think he would have said something like, "I've lost you, but I still have those beautiful jewels you left behind." ::shrugs:: Maybe that says the same thing. :/ Are you ready for some outlandish Wild Mass Guessing? :D Are we sure Jopapa is dead? Hauserova told Weber they could find no records of a soldier matching his description dying in '74 or '75. The hospital staff told Anna he had another assignment. Maybe that was true. Maybe he's the buyer of the sketches. He wanted them burned to protect Anna. "Is he German or Czech?" "Maybe neither." Maybe both? He's also looking for Wiendler so he can put a stop to him. But he told the proxy bidder that he wanted to invite him to start the experiments again, so that Wiendler would accept the invitation. I'm thinking this because if I were serious about restarting the experiments, I'd find Wiendler on my own. I wouldn't tell the proxy to use the name Weber to draw people who knew him to the story, people who would likely publicize what I was planning, and I certainly wouldn't tell the proxy guy any more than that I was interested in finding Wiendler and his original manuscripts. Why would I tell some random shady art broker that I was planning on gathering children to experiment on?? Especially if I had told him Weber's name to attract the attention of someone he could pass this information on to? So even if it's not Jopapa (:D), I'm thinking it actually is someone who wants to stop this from happening again, rather than someone who does want it to start up. Which makes me think now that Sievernich could actually be a possibility. I think he'd take great pleasure in bringing these people down, without them realizing he was the one who was orchestrating their downfall. He was quite enjoying working against Čapek and The Baby while they thought he and Johan were working for them. Either that, or this is just really poor plotting there at the end. :) Oh, and it's nice to start seeing some new colors around here! :) Congrats on the rank-up Toph. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 348 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64280381 03-29-2012 05:25 PM While I really hate to point out other errors (Just how many versions have you had? O_O) there's something that's repeated twice on p. 184: — Did she say anything else about her boyfriend? "I heard he was a Czech of German descent, from Bohemia. I think that she herself was half Czech and half German. They were planning to get married and were very much in love." — Do you know if they ever married? "Well... about a month and a half later she left Prague with her boyfriend. I never saw her again." It's no wonder that there are errors, though, considering that translating and revising this must have been mind-numbing. So anyway...I think Lunge's speech sums up not just the novel, but the entire theme of Monster. Ironically, it's the belief in inequality that perpetuates inequality in the first place. Those that are "monsters" only become monsters because they have been treated as if they were. And as a bit of a tangent on that, I had once considered that maybe Johan's killing of people may have been a twisted sort of mercy, but that didn't seem to add up with his character. I now deem him as the extreme misanthrope he comes off as...it's just that he became that way because of his experiences. Wow, there really are similarities between The Sleeping Monster and Johan's fairy tale! ...After looking at them again, I think they came up with them independently though. Johan's story sounded like what they did to him in K511 and what he was planning to do after getting back among the children. In fact, that tape of him was probably made during the time he was locked away. Heh, only Johan can tell people exactly what he's going to do without anyone noticing and having it work to his advantage. :P As for Bonaparta keeping an eye on the children...that could be plausible. He could have checked in on Johan from afar while Nina was being kept at the RRM. And I also have another theory about the Sophie's choice. What if the other people behind the experiment only wanted one child? They kept getting starry eyed about having the child, after all-the child that will lead them. So maybe Bonaparta didn't really have a choice but to force Jomama to pick. Didn't I suggest that Jodaddy might be alive a while back? Except that I thought the could be Fuhr, lol. (And he still could be. Anything is game at this point.) Though only putting up a front that the experiments will start again while secretly trying to bring them all down once and for all is a nice theory. It would explain the inconsistency of destroying the sketches, which seems to be an act of wanting to erase the past. I hadn't noticed until I logged back on again. And strangely enough, my 100th post was in the Korra thread. XD (I'll have something else to discuss here! Yay! And Lin Bei Fong is "my" daughter. As interesting a character as she is, I wouldn't want her as my daughter. :P) |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 349 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64293833 03-29-2012 06:19 PM Gah, I can usually figure out how I fuuuuuudge up, but that one, I have no idea. >.< Thanks, I'll fix that. :) I've lost track of versions. It's a work in progress. ;) I've never seen Johan as an actual misanthrope. I never thought he cared enough about people's lives to hate them, generally speaking. The ones he killed were merely out of expediency. Wiping out Ruhenheim was necessary to his goal of obliterating everything Bonaparta held dear, and perfectly suiciding in the process. I agree with you that they were independent, but the similarities struck me enough to go overboard. :) Yeah, only Johan. :D Wait, are you then saying Johan is starting up the experiments and making sure everyone knows about it ahead of time? I kept thinking you'd said something about that, but then I was thinking what you'd said was that he might be the father of the fabled cousin (who said that?) or Weindler or something. Anyway I convinced myself that it was different. :) And we're both too lazy to go back and find out. :-D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 350 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64294591 03-29-2012 08:01 PM Well, I was thinking that since he wanted to wipe out the world, I thought there could be some hate there. But maybe it really was more like apathy. It was a conclusion he believed that would happen, so he was just...fatalistic, I guess. Er, no, I was simply referring to how Johan was able to get away with spreading the fairy tale at K511 without anyone knowing that he was the one the story was about. I don't think Johan is involved with starting up the experiments. (Or maybe he is...if anyone can come up with something plausible concerning that. XD) No, that was you who thought that he was the father of the cousin. ...I think. *is definitely too lazy to check* ...Someone really does need to do a summary sometime. :P |
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