TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 151 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62188282 10-26-2011 12:01 AM You think Johan was realistic? :P (Though it is sort of the point of his character to be a genius, lol. ...And he did learn English and French when he was a kid, and it's easier to learn languages when you're young.) True, Reichwein's and Tenma's cases are much more believable. I'm just pointing out that Bonaparta wasn't unusual in having done a lot of things/being multi-talented. He's just juiced up a bit. ...I know! Bonaparta invented a stop watch that could freeze time! :D As for Tenma, I think the combination of studying his butt off and the fact that learning German was probably the only thing he was doing helped with that. Nevertheless, I still find that pretty impressive. Considering that Japanese is difficult to learn for native English speakers and vice versa, along with German being more similar to English than Japanese, that's quite an accomplishment. Though perhaps he knew a bit of English too before he went to Germany, and that helped him. Or maybe he used his knowledge of German to learn English in his spare time. Of course, maybe me being impressed has to do with being from the U.S., where knowing any foreign language is an accomplishment. I get the impression that it's much more common outside the U.S. Nice story about your friend. That must have been a bit embarrassing. Good thing English is somewhat of an international language, huh? I looked back at Reichwein's chapter, and yes, he did have to go back for more schooling. ...Maybe he would be allowed to directly go back into med school and take psychiatry? |
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GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 152 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62188644 10-27-2011 09:01 PM I think within the framework of the story Johann was realistic. That is, all his specialness could be chalked up to his carefully chosen genetics, with maybe a little help from the Devil himself. ;) Bonaparta was a genius, but I just can't figure out how it would be humanly possible to complete all those degrees along with everything else he was doing within the time frame he supposedly did it. I don't feel like researching post-war German/Czechoslovakian med school requirements to see if it was possible or not. :) Who knows, maybe he was such a darling of the Party elites that his neurosurgery credentials (heck, maybe even all his medical degrees) were just handed to him so he could have access to patients to practice and/or experiment on. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 153 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62188282 10-26-2011 12:01 AM GinaSzamboti wrote: Bonaparta was a genius, but I just can't figure out how it would be humanly possible to complete all those degrees along with everything else he was doing within the time frame he supposedly did it. I don't feel like researching post-war German/Czechoslovakian med school requirements to see if it was possible or not. :) Who knows, maybe he was such a darling of the Party elites that his neurosurgery credentials (heck, maybe even all his medical degrees) were just handed to him so he could have access to patients to practice and/or experiment on. Sure let's go with that. Though if all else fails, we could always go with the time freezing watch theory. :D ...Wait, did you mention the possibility that he could have experimented on patients? *shudder* He could have been another Josef Mengele for all we know... There's some other things I want to talk about, but I want to wait a bit until InTheGarden gets back. I don't want to add anything else! :D ...Not to mention that I have a busy weekend ahead of me... |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 154 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62218902 10-28-2011 02:53 PM TophBeiFong wrote: ...Wait, did you mention the possibility that he could have experimented on patients? *shudder* He could have been another Josef Mengele for all we know... He kinda was, in the psychology field. For me at least, there's this weird duality about the man. Every time we see him, he seems almost kindly, even before his reformation in his old age, so it's easy to forget the monstrous things he actually did (I seem to associate them all with Chapek!). I mean, you don't get any sadistic or cruel vibes from him. He's pleasant, with a soothing voice, even when he's casually stating that the twins don't need names, or that people can become anything, and the children he read to must've found him calming to listen to or they would've had to have been dragged back and chained to their chairs! And yet, he really was a monster. He's a pure sociopath without conscience, so he doesn't have to be cruel or sadistic to do these awful things (although I imagine that he enjoyed what he did to his father). He doesn't take particular pleasure in his experiments, except for the satisfaction of seeing his theories pan out. He just does what he does, blissfully unaware that they're awful things. It doesn't even seem to register that they're awful, until he falls for Anna, and then
I think he only became remorseful about any of it after living in Ruhenheim, like the thief who forgot how to steal. Even then, deep down, he still did not get it. I think Wim was another experiment, like Biermann's impromptu orphanage, whether he realized it or not. And he thought living quietly without hurting anyone else was enough to atone, because not doing his experiments or anything else intellectually stimulating was such a punishment to him. Even though he figured Hell was waiting on him to die of old age, he didn't think he ought to do anything else in the meantime. Because he never really grasped why all the things he had done were so terrible, except for taking people's names. That seemed to be the only thing he even though needed atoning for. /free association rambling I know there's other things I want to talk about too, but I haven't had time to reread stuff to remind me of them all. :) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 155 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62219200 10-28-2011 05:12 PM Well, of course he screwed with people's heads, but I was thinking that he may have done something horrible with surgery. Who knows what messed up stuff he could have done? Heh, I wonder if Bonaparta was partially inspired by Mengele. The dude sewed twins together after all. I don't know, I think Bonaparta might have understood why what he did was wrong, but I could be wrong. Or least he fully understood after Grimmer died. In addition, before reading Another Monster, I thought that when he fell in love, he realized that love was what gave life meaning. But now I've been considering something else...
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 156 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62220314 10-28-2011 05:58 PM Hmm, you might have something there about the RL model for the twin obsession... :/ Anyway, I meant that it didn't seem like he felt any significant remorse until living in Ruhenheim for awhile. Like if you decide to set a caged bird free to see it fly, it doesn't necessarily require remorse for having kept it caged in the first place. He gave Anna back her name and her freedom to demonstrate his feelings to her. I don't think he really got how much pain he'd caused until Grimmer was screaming in his face about it. Even then, just before Grimmer leaves the basement, when Bonaparta learns about Steiner he can't help but clinically comment on it as if it were just an interesting side effect of the experiments. At that point I just wanted Grimmer to bash him over the head and be done with it. :) And when he tried to kill Johann, he still sort of seemed to view him as his beautiful creation, and taking Johann with him was not an act to protect the world, or to atone, but to take something he loved with him, like wanting to be buried in your treasured Ferarri. If he could have taken Nina with them too, he would've died a happy man. I'm not explaining that very well, but the whole "Let's die together," thing has always been creepy to me. I agree with your spoiler. :) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 157 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62220680 10-28-2011 09:37 PM I was addressing the part where you said that he felt remorse in Ruhenheim, but he still didn't really get it. It's possible that he might have understood it, but if he didn't, then Grimmer sure made it clear when he started yelling at him. And in my opinion, that was his best moment in the entire series. What should have happened in the end: *Grimmer kidnaps Bonaparta, knocks him out, and takes him to an abandoned building* Bonaparta: ...Where am I? Grimmer: In an abandoned warehouse. Now explain to me what you did to the children of 511 Kinderheim and why. I promise not to tell anyone. Bonaparta: *explains everything* Grimmer: Okay, you can go. Bonaparta: :-O Really? Grimmer: Yep, just go on your way. :) Bonaparta: Okay. *leaves* Grimmer: Little does he know that I'm wearing a wire. ;-) *Later, Bonaparta gets arrested* Bonaparta: You promised not to tell anyone! Grimmer: I didn't tell anyone. This tape did! *holds up tape* :) Anyway, I'm not sure if Bonaparta still viewed Johan as a beautiful creation. Recall that he said "I created a monster." He didn't seem too thrilled when he said that. And I didn't see him as taking something he loved with him when he tried to kill Johan. Rather, I thought he was trying to erase himself along with Johan. |
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InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 158 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62223122 11-11-2011 03:28 PM Okay, I’m back! (Finally). First of all, I want to apologize for not showing up for so long after my deadline- I’m really horrible with keeping track of this kind of stuff :( Second, Gina, thank you for your updated version of AM :) Considering the amount of catching up I have to do, I decided to start by commenting on the stuff I found the most interesting first, and then slowly fill in the rest, since such a huge portion of information is too much for me to process in one sitting :) Sorry if I jump around a bit and this post turns out a bit hectic. As to the “twins gene”, here’s some information: http://multiples.about.com/od/pregnancy/a/familytwin.htm In light of this, I really like how it’s not Jopapa, but Jomama that had a twin- goes to show that Urasawa did a lot of research ;) Except that she and her sister were monozygotic twins, but maybe Bonaparta didn’t have any better set at hand :P Why Roberto wanted to kill Nina- I remember being puzzled about that too, and while watching Monster with a friend of mine a long time ago I asked him what he thought, and he gave me a similar explanation, so no surprise for me there :) I like how Roberto has a “I know what’s best for you, kiddo” attitude towards Johann, while completely misunderstanding his motivations and wishes- he leaves the room and asks his henchmen to do the dirty work for him so he can worm out of responsibility, as if he thinks that could save him from Johann’s… displeasure, if he were to find out his sister got killed while Roberto was around. Who knows, maybe he was such a darling of the Party elites that his neurosurgery credentials (heck, maybe even all his medical degrees) were just handed to him so he could have access to patients to practice and/or experiment on. In the time and place this happens, I think being friendly with the higher-ups would open all kinds of doors. I guess that even if he wanted to become an astronaut, the Party probably would’ve set him up somehow :P Of course, I still think it’s plausible that he managed to study both psychiatry and neurosurgery. I don’t have the slightest idea how Czechoslovakian higher education in the fourties-fifties worked either, but usually if you’re studying two related things, you have a lot of overlap in subjects, and you can just skip the courses you’ve already taken, so my guess is that would leave all the general medical courses, plus the ones related to psychiatry, plus the neurosurgical ones, which kind of makes it one and a half of a major. …I’m not sure if I’ve expressed myself clearly here ;( Every time we see him, he seems almost kindly, even before his reformation in his old age, so it's easy to forget the monstrous things he actually did (I seem to associate them all with Chapek!). I mean, you don't get any sadistic or cruel vibes from him. He's pleasant, with a soothing voice, even when he's casually stating that the twins don't need names, or that people can become anything, and the children he read to must've found him calming to listen to or they would've had to have been dragged back and chained to their chairs! I think this is a prerequisite to being a successful manipulator. It’s pretty intuitive that you have to gain your victims' trust to mess with their minds, and I’m willing to bet that it isn’t a coincidence that Bonaparta has such a fatherly image- it’s either a natural talent of his, or he worked hard on appearing trustworthy (IMO it’s the former). Maybe they even taught this kind of stuff at K511- both Johann and Grimmer are very good with getting what they want from people. Even Roberto and Sievernich can be charming when they need to (there’s no evidence of this onscreen, and at least to me, the thought of either of them being “charming” seems ridiculous, but Roberto somehow manages to woo all those women, and Sievernich wanted to be a politician, so… ). Here’s myWMG about Fuer:
Last thing for now- Gina, if you still want to do the timeline thing with me, could you please e-mail me what you already have? |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 159 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 62410098 11-11-2011 05:36 PM Welcome home! *gets shot for an incredibly lame joke* Well, Johan and Nina are fraternal, so who says that Jomama wasn't a fraternal twin? It's never really said anyway. As for Bonaparta's talent for gaining trust...
As for your WMG...
I just looked at my posts, and 34 of them are Monster related. *brings up calculator* ...So that's 66.7%! (i.e. 2/3) |
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| InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 160 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62410822 11-12-2011 05:33 AM If I hadn't already said "I'm back", I would now :P You're right, they never say they were identical, I just kind of always assumed they were :) As to Johann, yes, I think he was mostly born with it, but that doesn't mean they couldnt've teached those sort of things in Kinderheim. I wasn't trying to say that Johann being talented at getting people to trust him implies he learned that in K511, rather that if Bonaparta himself was so good at it, and the Kinderheim program was based on his ideas, he, as a person that knows the benefits of appearing trustworthy, would probably include some kind of "class" (for a lack of a better word) devoted to teaching how to seem like a dependable, balanced person.
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 161 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 62416658 11-12-2011 11:15 AM Want me to say "Welcome home" again? Woops, just did. :P Yeah, Bonaparta could have taught it. And since Johan has natural ability...it got amplified. Big time. It's fuuuuun to overthink things. :D I know I promised not to do too much until you got back, but I just couldn't help myself and apparently, neither could Gina. Go ahead, take your time and look at all our |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 162 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62410822 11-12-2011 09:38 PM お帰りなさい, Garden! ;) The twins thing was interesting, but since they don't know what causes homozygous twinning, I don't see how they can write it off as just coincidence that it seems to run in families. While there's no proof that it's genetic, until they know the mechanism, all they can say is we don't know. TophBeiFong wrote: As for Bonaparta's talent for gaining trust...
Ooh, I love this! I never considered that before. :D |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 163 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62424814 11-19-2011 11:15 AM While we're waiting for Garden to catch up (and maybe other people to join us as well?), I started trying to read this from the beginning again. While doing so, I found two errors in the dates, which were written as 2001, instead of 2000 (even if I hadn't had the book to check with, the hospital murders couldn't have taken place in November 2001, since Weber's subsequent research encompasses most of that year). The reason I mention this is that I wonder if this error was in an earlier edition of AM, and was corrected later on. It's not the sort of mistake I'd expect of the translator, and especially not twice. And there's a big difference in overlooking the 十 in 十一 (especially when it's written in a vertical column :) ) and mistaking 二０００ for 二００一. Think about reading 2000 and typing 2001 in those characters and it's just not a very likely error. And that leads me to wonder if some of the date errors in the Spanish edition might've been from faulty earlier manuscripts too. Since I don't have access to any early editions, there's no way to know I guess. :) Just curious. As we've seen in both the anime and manga, as well as the novel, some of these dates just don't add up, so I guess it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it was wrong in the original manuscript. :) Now I'm sidetracked into working on the timeline (of the novel at least)... This is what happens when you leave me twiddling my thumbs too long... >.> |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 164 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62520426 11-20-2011 10:31 PM Here's a random question that just occurred to me: once Weber's book was finally published, what do you think the various characters from Monster would do once they read it? I think Tenma and Nina would avoid reading it...until perhaps Reichwein told them its contents. One way or another though, they would end up knowing about it. What then? |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 165 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62544084 11-21-2011 12:29 PM I never noticed that about the year. I suppose the translator may have accidentally been thinking about 2001 instead of 2000 for some reason. Hey, that's a fun question! Tenma: *reads section on himself* Great, now the entire world knows about my screwed up family. Nina: *reads section on herself* Wow, that's exactly what I said. How did he piece that together? Eva: *reads section on herself and the parts with her email* Martin... :'( Lunge: *reads section on himself* I should have figured everything out sooner... Gillen: *is fascinated throughout* Reichwein: I feel so strange reading this. I know it's morbid, but I'm actually enjoying this book. It's like I'm reading a mystery novel. Suk & Tenma upon reading the section about the Magnificent Steiner: :'( Lunge upon reading the section about the Magnificent Steiner: There was obviously a conspiracy... Everyone reading Anna Part II: WTF? (except maybe Tenma, if he actually found out about it)
Everyone: Bonaparta was messed up. Everyone upon reading the last chapter: What the *bleep* does this mean? Tenma: I need to check on something...to make sure that...*leaves* Lunge: I will not rest until I solve this! Here's another question: How many characters do you think developed PTSD over the course of the story? (Other than Nina and Grimmer, since that was pretty blatant.) |
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Konankun Posts: 7 Registered: 08-21-2011 Message 166 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62549470 11-22-2011 02:51 PM Hi y'all Okay, TophBeiPhong, I give up: why did you give Pony Tenma wings? (mentioned sep 20th 2011) Is it because Tenma flew over from Japan to Germany? Because he is an angel, fighting against the Beast? Or maybe because he can save a life in ten seconds flat? ;-) Gina, here's one more thing you might like to correct in your translation: On page 11, you mention the German words 'eltern' and 'sohn'. These should both begin with a capital letter - all German nouns do. Same goes for 'führer' on pages 12 and 25, and 'heurigen' on page 20. It's fun to see the three of you trying to solve a puzzle with half of the pieces missing, and with no way to figure out what the whole picture is supposed to look like. Have you ever considered writing a letter or an e-mail to Urasawa or Nagasaki, to ask them directly? Greetings, Marc |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 167 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Konankun - Message ID#: 62568022 11-22-2011 05:01 PM Konankun wrote: Hi y'all Okay, TophBeiPhong, I give up: why did you give Pony Tenma wings? (mentioned sep 20th 2011) Is it because Tenma flew over from Japan to Germany? Because he is an angel, fighting against the Beast? Or maybe because he can save a life in ten seconds flat? ;-) Those are all nice answers. (And I like the Rainbow Dash reference. :D) But the actual reason is more simple than that: Tenma means "pegasus" (literally "heaven horse"). Yay puns! :D But you get a cookie anyway since you're one of the few people who bothered to post in this thread. ^_^ Gina, here's one more thing you might like to correct in your translation: On page 11, you mention the German words 'eltern' and 'sohn'. These should both begin with a capital letter - all German nouns do. Same goes for 'führer' on pages 12 and 25, and 'heurigen' on page 20. It's fun to see the three of you trying to solve a puzzle with half of the pieces missing, and with no way to figure out what the whole picture is supposed to look like. Have you ever considered writing a letter or an e-mail to Urasawa or Nagasaki, to ask them directly? I imagine it would go something like this... Me: Urasawa-san, what does this mean? Urasawa: What do you think it means. Me: I think it means you enjoy messing with people's heads. Urasawa: You are correct. Greetings, Marc |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 168 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Konankun - Message ID#: 62568022 11-22-2011 08:28 PM Hey there! Welcome! Good to see you here! So which theory do you favor? :D ::headslap:: D'oh! Of course. I shall fix that straightaway! Thank you for bringing it to my attention. :) I think I'd heard that somewhere before about Tenma's name, but did not connect it to the pony Tenma. :) Now that you bring that up, it's interesting to note that in Another Monster Tenma's name is always written in katakana rather than kanji. The only place I've seen it in kanji is on the Japanese Wikipedia, where it's written as 天馬賢三 as well as in hiragana and katakana. I wonder if that's to reinforce his non-Japanese-ness, or is it to emphasize that Weber isn't writing in Japanese, so he wouldn't know the kanji to use? Btw, Tenma can also mean "evil spirit," as well as a "mail horse" (like for the historical Japanese version of the Pony Express), and "Gastrodia tuber." :) The latter was always how WWWJDIC kept trying to translate it. :D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 169 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62574142 11-22-2011 08:40 PM I'm not sure it would have anything to do with Weber not knowing what kanji to use, since it was "translated." I'm going with emphasizing non-Japaneseness. I'm in a class about sociolgoical theory right now, and I can't help but think that the surname Weber is some sort of reference to Max Weber. But as to what the connection is, I have no clue. :P What do you think about the reactions I came up with? ...Gastrodia tuber? Lolwut. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 170 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62574326 11-22-2011 09:41 PM TophBeiFong wrote: I'm not sure it would have anything to do with Weber not knowing what kanji to use, since it was "translated." I'm going with emphasizing non-Japaneseness. ...Gastrodia tuber? Lolwut. It's probably this If Weber didn't know, there's no way for the "translator" to know either, without researching Tenma's family or Japanese newspaper reports on his own. He could guess, but I think that's considered bad form, since the chances of picking the wrong kanji are high. I liked your speculations. True-to-character reactions. :D It could lead to another series! |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 171 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62575284 11-24-2011 12:11 PM As I just posted over in the after-series thread, a new question came up for me about Monster: "When did Nina (and Johann? - well, I guess he got indoctrinated fully at K511, but he had the book before that) attend any reading seminars? I had always assumed that it must've been when they were little, but before Jomama escaped with them and went into hiding. Another Monster sort of rules that out, doesn't it? (will elaborate on why in the AM thread) Nina's memories leading up to the massacre all seem like her being chosen and taken to the room without walls happened over a few days or at most a couple of weeks, and then ta-da! she's presented to the gathered throng. She doesn't tell of being read to in any of her flashbacks." The why is in the timing in Hana's interview, when Jomama came back to ask Jana for help, and the earlier interview where it was said she was being hidden by someone from Charter 77. It's never said exactly when Bonaparte found them again, but it doesn't seem to me like it was very long before the massacre. Is my sense of this off somewhere? Also, re-reading some of the ending comments in the Sci-Fy thread (I wish Krill would come back and offer his excellent insights) made me start to wonder about when the events in the final episode take place relative to AM. I thought it was only a few months after everything went down (1998), so maybe 1999, but I started thinking about Nina's schooling, and rereading some other stuff and now I realize that it must be concurrent with the investigation. Weber says, "After three years, she and Tenma both returned to society." That would make the ending of the anime roughly concurrent with the ending of the novel. Which to me suggests a different take on that final shot of the empty bed. Which in turn makes the ending of the novel read a little differently, although I'm still going with my pet theories, for now. ^.^ I need to think about this some more (and hear some other opinions), but I wanted to mention it before I forgot. :) Happy Thanksgiving, for the US posters and lurkers! Happy Nov. 24, international folks! :D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 172 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62575284 11-26-2011 01:42 AM And the "translator" couldn't do a little research such as looking at an old newspaper article to find out the kanji for Tenma's name because...? Anyway, I had the same question about when the twins were at the Red Rose Mansion readings too and thought that Jomama could have sent them without knowing that Bonaparta was doing them. Yet that seems like a flimsy explanation, since I would think that Jomama would be extremely protective and not even let them out of the house at the same time. I then concluded that there's really no evidence to suggest that either of them went to the readings. But how did they get a hold of "The Nameless Monster"? Was it a parting gift from Bonaparta? XD I've also been wondering the same thing about AM and the final episode. Yet I always assumed the line "After three years, she and Tenma both returned to society" was just referring 1995-98. That still doesn't rule out that the investigation and the final episode are taking place at the same time, especially with Nina's schooling. Maybe the whole thing with Kottman got Tenma to do some investigating himself? |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 173 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62620562 11-26-2011 10:56 AM Well, yeah, he could. So why didn't he? :) Maybe the "translator" wanted to preserve the foreignness of the text. ;) But Nina recognized all the books and knew their stories. Didn't she tell Lipsky that she remembered reading circles? Can't remember how that conversation went down. And as you say, we still don't know how Johann got the book. He probably checked it out of the library and ran off before returning it. ;) Someone should investigate a string of unsolved murders of librarians... I meant that her schooling ruled out my initial impression that the ending took place in 1999. Now I think it's almost a requirement that it's concurrent with the ending of the novel. Everything ended witht he massacre in 1998, so I'm sure that's not what Weber meant by after 3 years. Another first impression I had was that Heckle found Anna, rather than Johann, but subsequent comments made me see that it probably was Johann (police records probably wouldn't figure into finding Anna). Yet that seems odd to me. Tenma was his surgeon, why would he need to go to such clandestine lengths to find him? Why wouldn't they just tell him if he asked? They didn't seem to have a problem with letting him in to see him once he knew where he was. oO And if Tenma could find Anna, why couldn't Weber? How did Tenma find Anna? It doesn't seem to have taken him long, since the woman at the sanatorium/nunnery acted like he had visited several times over a long period. And why didn't Nina ever go visit her? That's certainly a conversation I'd like to hear. :D So you think Tenma went to see Johann to sort of make sure he was there, and not involved in the Kottman killings? Hmmm... Btw, do you think at this point we can dispense with spoiler tags? If the lurkers aren't going to comment, I don't care if they're spoiled, and if they're still lurking they're probably reading them anyway. I sort of didn't want to spoil new people who made their way here via Google, but I think they can figure out how to get the translation from me now without reading the thread, so... Is there a downside I'm not thinking of? |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 174 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62622808 11-26-2011 09:48 PM Well since I'm too lazy to let the episode on YouTube I took a look "elsewhere" and it seemed like the only book we're absolutely sure that she knew was The Nameless Monster and she never made any direct statement that she remembered the reading circles. In fact, I once thought Nina's comment about picking up a gun was the actual ending to The God of Peace and that was proof that she was in the circle, but now I see that it was simply a comparison to her shooting Johan as a girl. Furthermore, looking at the The Red Rose Mansion chapter of AM, the reading circles had only boys. Also, IIRC, Johan knew The God of Peace story, since he read it to the children in Munich. Either he remembered it after coming across The Nameless Monster again in the library, or he started looking for other books like it and came across it by coincidence. :/ Yes, her schooling does rule out the ending taking place in 1999. I meant the three years thing was that Tenma and Nina got into this whole mess in 1995, and it ended with Ruhenheim in 1998. After Tenma's innocence was proven, well, it could easily be said that they returned to society at that time. I always assumed it was Anna that Tenma was looking for too, though I have seen the theory that it was Johan he was looking for. Though perhaps the police records may not have had anything to do with the police hospital Johan was being kept in, but with the Czech Secret Police. :O Maybe Weber wasn't willing to steal police records, or Heckel simply beat him to them. Or perhaps he simply didn't want to get involved with the whole Anna mess with what little he did find out.This might point to my theory of the "secret of present" really being where Anna is, considering all the multiple name business. (Yeah, I'm getting tired of spoiler tags too. And they seem to mess up on me a lot anyway...) As for Nina...I'm not sure if she'd really be comfortable going to see her mother. Too many horrible memories associated with her. You know, it could have been Weber's letter that made him decide to go investigate for himself. Or perhaps Tenma's visit to the hospital happened not long before the Kottman murders! :O Going back to spoiler tags...well, the first post does warn about spoilers. And if they accidentally come here through Google, I imagine that they would have been searching for Another Monster anyway. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 175 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62631886 11-27-2011 11:15 PM I guess it seemed to me like she wasn't hearing the stories for the first time when Lipsky was reading them to her. When he described the reading circles, and how Bonaparta would ask if they understood the meaning of them, she has a flashback to Bonaparta reaching for her and asking, "Do you understand?" Maybe that's from when he told her not to become a monster, but why does she associate it with what Lipsky's telling her? And she tells him she does understand the stories (but maybe it's just because she's a superior child. :) ). As for Johann, I don't remember him reading from any of Bonaparta's books (do you know which episode it was?). He did offer to bring some picture books to read to that one jerky kid, but he has his encounter with The Monster Without a Name before he makes good on that. Which is kind of interesting in itself. He didn't seem to remember the book, and yet he was still almost instinctively thinking picture books were a good indoctrination tool. Or else he remembered liking such books and was genuinely trying to offer something the kid would enjoy (or maybe he was going to bring him Dorn in the Darkness! ;D). TophBeiFong wrote: You know, it could have been Weber's letter that made him decide to go investigate for himself. Or perhaps Tenma's visit to the hospital happened not long before the Kottman murders! :O I now think it happened after the murders (Nov. 2000) and Tenma visited sometime in the summer of 2001. On one hand it makes sense that Heckle was looking for her, but he makes it sound more recent than the nun and Anna who make it sound like Tenma's been visiting for awhile. I guess for me, it's easier for me to believe that Heckle's still whinging about an un/underpaid bill from a couple of years ago, than it is to believe that they've been hiding Johann's location from the doctor who saved his life, and yet didn't try to prevent him from seeing him once he found out where they've been hiding him. And I think his motivation was mainly to tell him his name and other Jomama news. Of course Johann had to mindwarp him before he could reveal it. :) Since Anna's in France, I don't think her location is the secret of the present though. I think Weber only had his people showing the sketch in the Czech Republic. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 176 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62646198 11-28-2011 02:50 AM I know her reactions seemed that way...but maybe she was just freaked about the content of the story? :-l I can't recall what episode it was, but Johan was reading to some kids in the park (though we don't hear him read the story itself) and he explained that the meaning of the story was that "even inside a god of peace, there is a demon" or something like that. So it was clearly the God of Peace story. ...I'm not sure whether I'm imagining this or not. As a small note, I'm pretty sure Heckel was complaining that he wasn't paid enough to do it, not that Tenma didn't pay him or only paid him partially. So Heckel making it sound recent still stands, but it could be explained by assuming that a lot of time passed between those scenes. I guess I should elaborate on what I meant about the secret of the present being where Jomama is. If Bonaparta messed with her head to the point that she thought her real name was Viera instead of Anna and if she happened to go to another country (like France), her records would have her name as Viera and not Anna. So if anyone would go looking for her, they would have to look for someone named Viera. Therefore, the name switch keeps Jomama's identity a secret and thus no one in-universe would really know where she is unless they know that she is going by a different name. ...Though this may be too simple to be the real secret. Something else that occured to me about Bonaparta (he's just full of twisted fun, isn't he?) is that one person's comment about Bonaparta wanting to "recreate people who have already been born" could have some disturbing implications for his interactions with Jodaddy. If we assume that Jodaddy was his brother, then he could have had some twisted pleasure in experimenting with Jodaddy as a way of recreating their father in the way Bonaparta wanted. Where he couldn't control who his father fell in love with, he could control who Jodaddy fell in love with. This could have a slightly different meaning if Jodaddy was actually his son and not his brother. In this scenario, he would be using Jodaddy to recreate himself rather than his father. Perhaps Jomama reminded him of the woman he fell in love with but couldn't have. Thus, he decided to live through Jodaddy. However, he ended up falling in love with Jomama himself, perhaps in tranferring his love for Jodaddy's mother to her. Yeah, either way, Bonaparta was a messed up man. With major daddy issues. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 177 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62647542 11-28-2011 10:38 AM It could be. As you've pointed out, the story isn't clear at all, and aside from the question of where they got the book, it makes more sense that she didn't undergo the readings. I think you're going to have to find the episode. :) I don't remember him reading to kids in the park, just his playing world domination with them. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though. That's what I meant by underpaid. By the time she went to France though, she knew her name was Anna. Well, maybe not. Bonaparta wrote the letter, but did she ever see it, or did he just give it to her portrait? I still think the secret of the present is that the seminars and the purpose behind them aren't a thing of the past. So no one who knew she was a subject of the Plan would come forward. And anyone else who knew much about it wouldn't come forward to give anyone clues as to how to find her, even if they didn't know where she was themselves. That said, it still seems surprising that her classmates wouldn't come forward to say they remembered her in school, unless they were still afraid to say so after her being erased from the records, or they didn't see how their old memories would be of any use now. Oh yeah, that's an interesting take on his interest in Jodaddy. Bonaparta really was a piece of work. :) I don't think there's any question that Bonaparta was not Jodaddy's daddy though. He's either Terner's son, or the next-town boy's son, and the latter is no fun. ;) If Franz had ever been with her, she probably would've married him, and none of this would have happened. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 178 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62649586 11-28-2011 04:15 PM I'll try to find the episode later. There's some stuff I've been procrastinating from...^_^U Crap, I did assume that he just hid it behind the portrait. But if he did actually read her the letter, perhaps she was too screwed up to actually remember that it was her real name. That said, all speculation on the secret is good speculation. And my explanation is pretty boring. :P I was assuming that maybe that Bonaparta had a one night stand with the girl from the next town or something. But since that assumption really did come out of nowhere, the question Weber asked about who the boy's father was didn't mean that it was between Terner Poppe and Bonaparta, but between Terner and the guy she married. I didn't realize this until you pointed it out. *slaps forehead* |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 179 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62654970 11-28-2011 07:18 PM Well it might help if he had a name besides "next-town boy." Every time I type that I keep hearing Billy Joel in my head. :/ |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 180 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62658144 12-02-2011 08:02 PM We'll just call him Bob. Bob always works. :D Anyway, I just checked my email and I saw you sent a better picture of the sketch a couple of weeks ago. (I don't check my email that often.) This new image makes it look a little less like Johan. However, my first thought upon viewing it was this. XD EDIT: Yay, I'm purple! :D |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 181 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62720916 12-03-2011 11:34 AM Bob it is. :) edit: On second thought, that's a diminutive of Robert, and we wouldn't want to confuse him with Roberto! How about Henry? (the German word for cuckold is Hahnrei. >.>) Is that a suggestion that it could be a sketch of a woman? ;) I'm up to Karl's chapter in re-reading again, and ran into the sentence where it says that Schuwald gave Karl to a friend and disappeared from his life (could have sworn someone mentioned this, maybe even me, but can't find it anywhere). That was so obviously at odds with how the anime (and I presume the manga) told it, that I had to go look at the original text, which does in fact say "she" and not "he." Am I a bad person for feeling kind of happy that experienced translators make such errors? >.> Also, this sentence leapt out at me from Rudi's chapter: I think that even if you had the same education as Johann, it doesn't mean you would think and do these terrible things on your own. If there were any danger, it would be if they ran into Johann somehow. But that would now be impossible. Or would it...? dun dun dunnnnn. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 182 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62727238 12-03-2011 01:01 PM Hmm...good point. I like your reasoning for Henry, so why not? :P That was mostly a joke. But it could be a sketch of a woman for all I know. No, you're not a bad person for feeling that way. I think everyone does something like that to a degree in order to get a confidence boost. Also, this sentence leapt out at me from Rudi's chapter: I think that even if you had the same education as Johann, it doesn't mean you would think and do these terrible things on your own. If there were any danger, it would be if they ran into Johann somehow. But that would now be impossible. Or would it...? dun dun dunnnnn. Johan is behind everything! ...Actually, I have no freaking clue. :P EDIT: I'm back to being green now. I liked being purple! :( |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 183 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62727952 12-09-2011 09:31 AM I missed my last chance for purple when the system logged me in twice when I wasn't looking. You just have to post more so you can move up to being a brown Nerd! :) I got an email today from someone who I sent the TL to, and she alerted me to the fact that the link I had for here didn't work. Maybe that's why no one has shown up. >.< Nah, probably not, since no one else has asked how to get here. But I'm hoping she'll drop in. She sent me a pic of something really cool, and I so want her to sign up and post it. :) Anyway, what I was implying with my rhetorical question was that that quote strikes me as foreshadowing, in the same way as Hauserova's comment (Ch. 16) about the possibility of another Johann. Something else I just noticed: the picture of the cover of Dorn in the Darkness, which shows an uneasy woman half-looking over her shoulder where there is a partially shadowed, long-haired man reading a book (behind both of them is a full moon with a tiny silhouette of a robed figure raising an ax above his head, but I don't think he's supposed to be part of their scene, just additional art). I find it very interesting that the threatening figure is not wielding a knife or weapon, but is reading. (Gah! Run for your life, he's got a book!!! :D ) And although it's extremely faint, I would swear the book is The Nameless Monster. Unfortunately, it doesn't scan well enough to show up looking like it does on the original page, which is why I didn't post a pic. :/ I wonder if Johann thought so too? Also, looking at the cover and an illustration from the book, I guess I'd have to say that although Urasawa drew everything, Weindler's art and Weber's art do look a bit different, so I'm pretty sure that final sketch is Weber's. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 184 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62827342 12-10-2011 10:43 AM I hate brown. ...But I'll proudly wear the label of nerd! XD It's so lonely in this thread...it's as if we're the only two people left in the world. *gets shot for another bad Monster joke* Anyway, any hints to what this cool thing is? ;) It could be foreshadowing, or it could be just another thing thrown in there to make us question what really happened. Holy crap WTFBBQ?!?!?! Dorn in the Darkness...Nameless Monster...*does not compute* When I first looked at The Awakening Monster (long before I signed up here), my first impression was that it was some sort of prequel to The Nameless Monster. If the book on the cover of Dorn is The Nameless Monster, then that could support that theory. Perhaps TAM was Weindler/Fuer's idea of what happened before. ;) Also, perhaps the cover sort of describes the plot of the book. Dorn killed people with an axe, right? And storybooks also had the power to corrupt or purify Dorn's heart. Maybe, just maybe, the robed figure with the axe was Dorn, and he was about to kill the guy reading the book. Which has an odd parallel with Lipsky's story about the monster looking for the dragon. ...>_>...<_<... So the sketch is pretty much Weber's for sure, eh? Hmm... |
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JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 185 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 12-10-2011 11:05 AM Hello! I have just finished Another Monster, many thanks to Gina for sending me the translation! I have read through most of the comments, and in general, many of the theories/conclusions drawn were similar to mine. The only part of the novel that succeeded in confusing me completely was the issue with Johan's mother, and whether or not she was living her dead twin's life half of the time. I do have a question though:
I think I may have to re-read parts of Another Monster to truly grasp the sequence of events. Some did not fit with each other, but I found something interesting.
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 186 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62831748 12-10-2011 11:27 AM Yay! Another person! :D I'll try answer your questions, but Gina could probably answer them better. 1. Good question. 2. Most likely. ;) |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 187 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62831748 12-10-2011 01:48 PM Woo hoo! Welcome to the discussion! ::happy dances:: I think we're all still confused by what's going on in Anna Part II. Any theories? My original mistranslation didn't help matters regarding us figuring out the deal with her mother. :/ But I think the answer is that we don't know. All we really have to go on is Weber's speculation, which on its face says that Bonaparta found her after she was born (Weber didn't have a lot to go on either). But my own speculation is that he found her mother before she was born. I just think the exchange about feeling like her sister was still alive is a Chekhov's Gunman rather than a red herring, and if so, it seems like someone had to have lied to her mother about the death of the twin (or altered her memory of the birth), or at least made her mother lie to Anna about that. And that would in turn have required finding her while she was pregnant. I think we're sure Fuer is the boy that Sobotka talks about in Ch. 17, because of the fragment of The Sleeping Monster that he relates. Lipsky didn't mention a specific boy, just that what Bonaparta was looking for were kids who could create their own stories. |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 188 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62831912 12-10-2011 01:56 PM I was curious. Do most people believe that
Another small observation of mine, dealing more with Johan's characterization:
I would also like to add something else:
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 189 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62833220 12-10-2011 01:58 PM I need to go check again, but I feel as though Lipsky, albeit briefly, mentioned that there was one particular child who could do just as Bonaparta asked... We know that this is not Johan, as he is many years younger than Lipsky. I am unsure, though... By the way, do you know where I can get The Sleeping Monster? I have not read it :(. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 190 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62831538 12-10-2011 02:18 PM We are found! ...in the wasteland on the border of sanity/insanity. :D Ok, our secret santa (who I'm pretty sure will join us, but maybe not till after Christmas) sent me scans of the cover in question (because she has the book! and stuff!!), and the scan is actually clearer than the original was to my own eyes in my pathetic glasses. This is the cover of Nameless Monster. What do you think? Also, here is Weber's sketch of Lipsky, so you can compare the art styles. TophBeiFong wrote: When I first looked at The Awakening Monster (long before I signed up here), my first impression was that it was some sort of prequel to The Nameless Monster. If the book on the cover of Dorn is The Nameless Monster, then that could support that theory. Perhaps TAM was Weindler/Fuer's idea of what happened before. ;) Also, perhaps the cover sort of describes the plot of the book. Dorn killed people with an axe, right? And storybooks also had the power to corrupt or purify Dorn's heart. Maybe, just maybe, the robed figure with the axe was Dorn, and he was about to kill the guy reading the book. Which has an odd parallel with Lipsky's story about the monster looking for the dragon. ...>_>...<_<... Do you still think that after seeing the cover? Hmm, I can see how you could think TAM was a prequel, but I don't think so, 'cause you know I'm now married to the idea that it's about Johann. ;) The Dorn cover just suggests to me that Weindler used his own experience of a "real" book that had the power to corrupt. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 191 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62833336 12-10-2011 02:43 PM No, we don't think Fuer was Johann all along. Fuer is much too old, and his editor would have recognized Johann when the story broke, and there are lots of other reasons that can't be. And while there are different theories about its meaning, and who was on the phone, and who the sketch is of, etc., I think we all agree that Fuer is the undisputed author of Awakening Monster. I think it's fair to say that Fuer ended up being a fan of Johann after seeing him at the RRM, although more in the sense of wanting to emulate him rather than doing his bidding. Also, I think the ending is ambiguous enough that if you don't want to think Johann woke up, you don't have to. :) A lot of people shared your take on the ending of Monster, and maybe that's why they don't feel any need to read AM. My feeling is that he woke up, perhaps awakened by his cousin (if he exists), and that he's not on a new killing rampage, but will stop the "new monster" from following in his footsteps (suggested by the awakened monster eating the boy who woke him up). I think Toph has a different theory, and InTheGarden, who has been awol for far too long, has her own theory too. I think you might be confusing Lipsky's account with Sobotka's. Lipsky is much more vague when he talks about that. The Sleeping Monster is told at the beginning of Ch. 23. |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 192 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62834010 12-10-2011 03:05 PM After connecting the rather strange trends involved with emulating parental/mentor figures, I am willing to accept that Johan awoke :). However, I do not know if it was he who approached Weber in the hotel room, or if it was indeed Fuer... Unless, of course, the rough sketch was symbolic in the sense that due to Johan's influence, Fuer had somehow transformed himself into the figure of "Johan" (not literally, but figuratively). And I was reading some pages back, and I think you suggested that Johan's face was well known. I do not know if this is true, but I think that even though Johan's journey is now in the open, there are still many loose ends, and I do not believe that Johan's image has been released to the public. The general tone of both the manga and the novel is mysterious and secretive. I do not think that the case, though acknowledged, has been delved into properly. I also believe that the story The Awakened Monster is based on Johan, though I do not believe that Johan's current goal would be to destroy the other monster, though it certainly is an interesting theory! Instead, I see it as merely a continuation, Johan's strange journey is perhaps to search for "the name of the boy most loved". However, this could be counterproductive :D, for by searching for it, it may awaken "the monster". In this, we may see some sort of acceptance from Johan, and perhaps, instead of being the "monster who went east", he will become "the monster who went west", thus recognizing the solemn fact that he does not have a name. And though Lipsky is vague, I found the slight hint rather telling. I personally believe that such a seemingly insignifcant detail would not be included if it did not hold some amount of importance. After all, would he and Fuer be around the same age? If this is the case, then I think it is valid to assume that both attended Bonaparta's reading seminars together. But this is merely speculation. If you don't mind me adding, I would like to say something about The Nameless Monster and The Man with the Big Eyes and The Man with the Big Mouth. I am curious, did you see those two stories as having themes that went around in a full circle? For example, in the end, the nameless monster has a name, but remains nameless, for those who call him by the name have disappeared. In addition, both the men in The Man with the Big Eyes and The Man with the Big Mouth are plagued with despair, regardless of the ways in which they were brought to it.... |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 193 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 12-10-2011 06:03 PM Ack! Post overload! O_O;; @Gina Oh, I see what you mean about the cover. It looks like it's just part of the title art. As for the connection between TNM and TAM, I still think it could be a prequel. While TNM was likely written before the twins were born, it does have some odd parallels to Johan's life. TAM also has some similarities too. When the boy from TAM said the name of the most loved person in the world, it unleashed the monster and that monster devoured him. Johan was chosen to be kept over Nina, whether by accident or not. Thus Johan was the most loved person in the world, and that created the monster that Johan later became. Note that this idea came before completely reading AM, though, so there is one major problem in that it would require Fuer to know about Johan's past. Though perhaps the similarity is just a coincidence and the story is similar for thematic purposes. And it is ambiguous as to whether or not the most loved person in the world is actually the child or someone else, since he simply said that he had the same name. And that is part of where your epileptic trees about Johan having a cousin came from. XD (Hey, it's not worse than me speculating at one point that Fuer is actually Jodaddy and Bonaparta didn't really kill him. That's actually a much crazier epileptic tree.) @JohanT I've actually played with the idea of Johan being the author of TAM, but another person who draws like Bonaparta is a bit too much. Yeah, Bonaparta is probably his uncle, but still... Oh, and Interesting take on TAM. It could very well be a sequel instead of a prequel. Are you getting at sort of the same thing as I was above, except that Johan is trying to figure out whether or not he was meant to have been picked over Nina? Also I find the theme of people becoming like their parents/mentors interesting. It's sort of the way the monster spreads from one person to another. Yet I think a major theme of Monster is that you can choose who you want to be. I think this could be best demonstrated with the contrast between Bonaparta and Tenma. Bonaparta became worse than his father by clinging to his old issues with him. Tenma, in contrast, turned out like neither of his parents with the exception of becoming a doctor like his father, but from what we know about his father I think Tenma took a different approach to the job (i.e. focusing on the patients instead of being successful). He probably still has issues with them, but I think he has let go of them to a degree. (Whereas Bonaparta gets revenge on his father by messing with his mind, Tenma simply breaks contact with his.) So the message is that while the monster may try to spread, you can choose whether or not to accept or reject it. Your point about the other two stories sort of reflect Bonaparta's view on this, though: No matter how much you try to change things, you always come around full circle. Yet with people like Tenma, it's also shown that it's possible to break the cycle. By the way...do you happen to be a member of Personality Cafe with the username LookingGlass? Something about your writing style reminds me of him, and he's a pretty big Urasawa fan. (I might ought to invite him here if you're not him...) If not, then just forget I ever asked you. ^_^U |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 194 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62836760 12-10-2011 07:49 PM I think the reason that The Nameless Monster parallels Johan's life is merely because Johan was named "Johan". He essentially became the monster within the storybook, switching names and identities when the time called for it. He even adopted the plot structure, the erasing of the past and the erasing of the identity, slowly but surely erasing his own existence, just as the monster did in the story. His modus operandi is encoded within the tale, and there is a strange wisdom added to it. The wisdom of the fallacies of human nature, and how it will merely bring about humanity's own destruction. In the end, Johan would become one with the part that accepted the life of nonexistence, but even then, there was no true acceptance, for the conflicting sides would merely have to triumph over the other, and in the end, no peace could come about from such a lifestyle :(. Quite sad, but that is my personal take on Johan's psyche (albeit a little basic at the time, I will go into depth later. There is too much to this character to leave it at just that :D). And I believe that this story was crafted primarily in order to create a "nameless monster". I actually think that it would be quite fitting if Johan was the author of The Awakened Monster. The illustrations being similar to Bonaparta's would only further provide evidence of Johan's inability to connect with a true self, and would also demonstrate his past being filled to the brim with Bonaparta's mystical fairy tales. I like the theory that he becomes Bonaparta, even though his hatred would be enough for him to despise such a person. The very same occurred with Bonaparta himself, so perhaps this is merely a statement on society. That the next generation will emulate the first, and in reality, change is not truly an ongoing process in terms of the individual. And I personally believe that it takes an uncommonly strong person to break through the cycle of "becoming one's parents", and Tenma seems to fit the characteristics. So yes, perhaps it is a statement on that particular underlying theme, but I also think it shows just why Johan respects Tenma to the extent that he does. Tenma is his own person. He is not anyone else. And admiration of someone usually stems from them having something you do not. And no, I am not that person :D. But I am a huge Urasawa fan! I only started reading Monster last year, but I was hooked! |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 195 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62834272 12-10-2011 11:48 PM Quick note before I conk out. :D JohanT wrote: I personally believe that such a seemingly insignifcant detail would not be included if it did not hold some amount of importance. After all, would he and Fuer be around the same age? If this is the case, then I think it is valid to assume that both attended Bonaparta's reading seminars together. But this is merely speculation. I agree it's important, but I think its importance is reinforcing Sobotka's story about the boy who made up a story about a sleeping monster. In 2001 Sobotka was 30, Lipsky was 39, and Fuer was pushing or past 50 (described as mid-40s when he brought in Sleeping Monster, published in early 1998). I guess it's not impossible for Fuer and Lipsky to be in the same seminar, since we don't know the age range of the seminars, but I think they were usually sent off to whatever by their mid-teens, as Grimmer and Joos were, and Fuer would have been about 20 when Lipsky was picked to join the group. Also, I think if Lipsky knew the boy that Sobotka said Bonaparta told them about, he would have spoken about it more directly. This is all that he says: "The children that he wanted, however, were the ones that understood his stories and could also come up with their own... To create children who would create the children his partners wanted." He only talks about Bonaparta's goal, not about any particular child that he found who qualified. And this comes round again when Weindler admits he was Bonaparta's best student. Which is why I think that Weindler is mentoring (and perhaps fathered under Bonaparta's orders) the son of Anna's missing twin, and that son is who Weber was trying to sketch, and is the reason why that consortium bought 1000 copies of The Sleeping Monster. ^.^ I'm off to bed. -_- |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 196 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62844326 12-11-2011 04:49 AM Ah, you're right. I seem to have forgotten that chapter :D. I thought that Lipsky had spoken about a specific child, but I just read it over, and he did not. So never mind! And, as you say, the age difference is immense, something else I failed to consider. Haha, this is what happens when you read too fast, you miss so many important details! I think your theory about Johan having a cousin who was trained to become the "other monster" is interesting. However, I personally like two theories that may or may not have been suggested in this thread. First, that Fuer has now morphed into "Johan", and that is the reason Weber's sketch resembled him. This would be quite interesting, for though Johan remains in a sleeping condition, he is still "awake" to terrorize humanity. Perhaps this could be a concept relating back to the second coming of the Antichrist, with which total destruction will follow. However, I am not well-versed in biblical studies, so do not go by what I say :D. Second, that Johan awoke, brainwashed the hospital employees into believing that he remained in a comatose state (not too difficult to accept, considering that this is Johan :)), and "stole" Fuer's life. He now remains as an anonymous storybook author, who penned The Awakened Monster as a means to demonstrate his next goal (which is still up in the air for debate). And to be honest, it could very well be that he could remain goalless, just as he was before, as the storybook suggests that the "one most loved" will stay nameless. Just like the nameless monster. So in reality, is there a difference between the two? If we consider this theory, then I think the pattern of Bonaparta's circular themes continues through Johan's own life. I actually like the idea that Johan's mother's twin is dead, and that she, though dead, was the wanted child. Perhaps this shows something, for the fact that the mother gave Nina away may have been an action of love, as the one most loved was the dead twin... But there is a natural confusion, for who did she mean to give away? Perhaps it is a bit far-fetched, for it would ruin the fact that Johan may have been living the lives of both his sister and himself as an initial expression of love... Or, if people happen to like this idea, it could also suggest that Johan was the one most loved. He was, in a sense, "dead", as his identity was merely a physical manifestation of his sister. I'm sure this has been acknowledged before, but there is a difference between the dub and the manga English translation, specifically in Johan's last line. The term in the manga is, I believe, "unwanted", whereas the word used in the dub was "need". This has no doubt been addressed, but "need" could imply the mother's wish to use one of the twins to exact revenge on Bonaparta. And perhaps, by choosing a twin to go with him, that twin, who would be subjected to horror and cruelty, would in turn develop a more potent grudge, a vicious need to have vengeance. In this, we can see the worth of the twins individually assessed. Which one was most likely to accomplish her goal? Now, this could go both ways, depending on Johan's mother's thought process. The twin chosen to go could be the most loved because he/she would kill Bonaparta. Or, the twin chosen to stay could be the most loved because Johan's mother wished to protect him/her from such a tragic hero-like fate. It would all depend on the mother's perspective of revenge, and whether or not she regarded murder as harmful to her child's well-being... Anyways, I think we can see a parallel between Johan and his mother. Both are living the lives of their twins, as Johan took his sister's memories as a way of carrying her burden, so that he was the unwanted child in her place. In Johan's case, however, the burden may or may not be intentional, as the reason for Johan's possession of memories that are not his own stem from his inability to separate himself as a physically and mentally tangible human being. In this case, the memories taken were a result of Johan seeing his sister and himself as essentially two halves of the same whole. And when there are two halves, they are expected to be identical, not just in appearance, but in property. If that makes sense :D. So, I have a question that I have been thinking about for a while now.... Johan lives through his sister's trauma, he has scars that she bears physically on her being. So, in a sense, he has already become "one" with his other half. So is the monster sated? Was he sated from the very beginning, but simply lived a meaningless life, knowing full well that his nameless status isolated him completely? And do you think that, perhaps, something awoke within him when Tenma saved his life? Something that lit a flame, that gave him hope that he could discard his lack of identity (Johan, in the manga, says to Tenma, "You remembered me", something even his sister failed to do (Through no fault of her own))? Remembrance is key to existence in this story, after all. I don't know, what do you all think? |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 197 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62846004 12-14-2011 09:53 PM Sorry to leave you hanging. :( Haven't been feeling up to thinking about this all week (after someone new finally joins too - weird). I'll have something to say by the weekend, promise. Whether it's anything worth waiting for...no guarantees. ;) |
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| JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 198 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62901612 12-17-2011 09:39 AM Oh, no worries. Please, take your time. In the mean time, I would like to add my input on a topic that I believe has already been discussed, although lightly. It revolves around Bonaparta's storybook, "The Door that Cannot be Opened". Or, the words go something like that :D. When I read that particular title, the word "cannot" struck me as having a double meaning. In my eyes, the significance of the unfinished, practically nonexistent story could potentially go two ways. One, the word "cannot" could imply that Bonaparta has, figuratively, attempted to open the door. Two, the word could merely be a way of saying that Bonaparta has left the door untouched. In this, we can, perhaps, see some sort of revelation coming from Bonaparta. Now, the significance would heavily rely on what is behind the door, which is left unanswered, by both Bonaparta and Urasawa. However, I personally see the mystery behind the door as being a rather basic concept: redemption and the regaining of one's own humanity. The word "redemption" is different from "repentance", which is practiced by Bonaparta for the remainder of his life. However, is he ever truly redeemed? Now, the door is a blockade, a barrier. It either "will not open" (as in, refuses to), or Bonaparta "will not open it", through a choice of his own. As such, it could possibly represent Bonaparta's search for his lost humanity, or it could signify Bonaparta's rejection of potential forgiveness, and instead, his dormancy, lying in wait for his day of final judgement to arrive (which comes in the form of Johan). In this, we see homages paid to more biblical aspects. This also mirrors Johan's own refusal of Nina's forgiveness, as he himself awaits judgement from Tenma, who is, ironically, the man who judges no one. :D How interesting.... However, though I stated that the significance can only be determined from knowledge of what is behind the door, I believe it is important to note that humanity is now a foreign concept in Bonaparta's mind. And therefore, he does not "know" what is behind the door, for the understanding has vanished. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 199 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62934156 12-17-2011 11:04 AM Wow, that was a very interesting and thoughtful analysis. :) So...I hate to tell you, but there are two problems. First is that according to his editor, the title is The Door that Must Not Be Opened, and the second is that we learned the whole story from Sobotka in Chapter 17, so we do know what's behind the door and why it must never be opened. Essentially it's the story of Bonaparta and Anna and the Red Rose Mansion massacre (prior to his carrying out his plan). I'm curious as to what you think of the story's ending though. I think his fantasy that she forgave him is sad and pathetic, but it answers your musing about him rejecting forgiveness. But is the speck of Darkness remaining within The Queen Bonaparta's wish that she carry him with her in her heart, or his acknowledgement that he's forever stained her perfect light, or something else? And where is the Door (that leads to the Room of True Darkness)? Is it in Bonaparta, or Anna, or is it the door that hides the truth of what happened? How does opening this door and letting in the light spark a new war between light and darkness? We usually think of shedding light on things as a means of purification, but Bonaparta seems to think it's better to let sleeping dogs lie. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 200 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 62846004 12-17-2011 01:29 PM Ok, first I would need a lot more details to convince me that Johann wrote "The Awakening Monster." Really, it's just too far-fetched to me that after all these years he suddenly decides to write a picture book for the first time, and to do it in Bonaparta's art style of all things. Just not buying it. :D I also don't think Fuer has transformed himself into Johann - whoever is in the sketch is not a 50-something man, and if Fuer could do that, forget picture books and manipulation, he'd be able to rule the world with whatever technique he used to look 30 years younger. ;) I like your reasoning behind thinking the twin really is dead, but the main thing keeping me on the side that she's alive is Hana's testimony that Anna thinks she's alive and isn't crazy. As you said, "I personally believe that such a seemingly insignifcant detail would not be included if it did not hold some amount of importance." Urasawa is notorious for his callbacks, and this one doesn't even seem like it's insignificant at the time, unlike his first mention of The Third Man. :D JohanT wrote: I'm sure this has been acknowledged before, but there is a difference between the dub and the manga English translation, specifically in Johan's last line. The term in the manga is, I believe, "unwanted", whereas the word used in the dub was "need". This has no doubt been addressed, but "need" could imply the mother's wish to use one of the twins to exact revenge on Bonaparta. And perhaps, by choosing a twin to go with him, that twin, who would be subjected to horror and cruelty, would in turn develop a more potent grudge, a vicious need to have vengeance. In this, we can see the worth of the twins individually assessed. Which one was most likely to accomplish her goal? Now, this could go both ways, depending on Johan's mother's thought process. The twin chosen to go could be the most loved because he/she would kill Bonaparta. Or, the twin chosen to stay could be the most loved because Johan's mother wished to protect him/her from such a tragic hero-like fate. It would all depend on the mother's perspective of revenge, and whether or not she regarded murder as harmful to her child's well-being... We did bat it around at the end of the Sci-Fi run, but now that I'm slightly more knowledgable about Japanese than I was then, I can say with certainty that the word Johann uses when speaking to Tenma in the anime is "need" (どち...いらなかったの = dochi...ira na katta no = which one...was not needed). Also, it's the same word he used as a child when telling Dinger that "such people aren't needed" (いらないよ). For what it's worth, the Spanish tl of Dinger's story used the verb sobrar, to be leftover, surplus, extra, rather than necesario. I was thinking along the same lines as you, but came to the opposite conclusion, that maybe she saved Johann because she thought as a boy he'd be more capable of exacting her revenge. But since we don't even know whether she could tell them apart for sure (you'd think a mother would know, but some have speculated she dressed them alike not only to hide their being twins, but to blind herself to which was which), it's pretty much impossible to know why she changed her mind at the last second. As far as "the most loved," well, since I think Fuer wrote the story, and he wasn't privy to this incident in Johann's life, I think it refers to Johann as the one all the neo-Nazis and Communists were pinning their hopes on as the new leader to dominate the world (although the story shows that there are many kinds of love and many people who are well-loved, none of those kinds of love work in awakening the monster - as cynical a view as I would expect from Fuer). One reading of the latter part of the story could be that the mother lost her son when he (the boy in the story) went on his quest to find the name of the most loved person, not realizing how loved he himself was (but wouldn't she recognize him when he came back? Wouldn't he recognize his own mother?). But another could be Anna not knowing what had happened to Johann after Ruhenheim (he was "spirited away"). JohanT wrote: Anyways, I think we can see a parallel between Johan and his mother. Both are living the lives of their twins, as Johan took his sister's memories as a way of carrying her burden, so that he was the unwanted child in her place. I agree there is a parallel, but as you suggest next, I don't think Johann deliberately took on his sister's memories (see below). In Johan's case, however, the burden may or may not be intentional, as the reason for Johan's possession of memories that are not his own stem from his inability to separate himself as a physically and mentally tangible human being. In this case, the memories taken were a result of Johan seeing his sister and himself as essentially two halves of the same whole. And when there are two halves, they are expected to be identical, not just in appearance, but in property. If that makes sense :D. So, I have a question that I have been thinking about for a while now.... Johan lives through his sister's trauma, he has scars that she bears physically on her being. So, in a sense, he has already become "one" with his other half. So is the monster sated? Was he sated from the very beginning, but simply lived a meaningless life, knowing full well that his nameless status isolated him completely? And do you think that, perhaps, something awoke within him when Tenma saved his life? Something that lit a flame, that gave him hope that he could discard his lack of identity (Johan, in the manga, says to Tenma, "You remembered me", something even his sister failed to do (Through no fault of her own))? Remembrance is key to existence in this story, after all. Too true! I don't know, what do you all think? Remember back in Erna Tietze's chapter (5), she described little Anna as talking to herself in Czech, carrying on conversations, and then telling her that Johann had decided to leave K511 the day before the massacre. If these kids were that linked, imagine what it would be like when she was under the stress of the RRM. I would think that not only was Johann hearing her pour her heart out to him describing what she'd been through, but was also feeling her broadcasting her emotions about it too. Perhaps he'd been experiencing it with her all along, just as she had when Johann was in K511. In other words, he may not have had a choice about taking on her memories as his own. (that's my WMG for the day ;) ) |
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