GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 351 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64296083 03-29-2012 08:11 PM No I thought Weindler could be the father of the cousin! :) I don't think Johan is involved either, and I didn't think you were really suggesting that. I was just teasing about that extrapolation of what you said. Because the more I think about it, the more it really bugs me that whoever is starting it up would be so stupid, or careless, or brazen to practically announce it by using the name Werner Weber to buy those sketches, and tell the proxy all the plans. It's like sterotypical supervillainy (I'm sure you know the name of the trope), laying out all your plans, but without the hero tied up and facing death. :/ That's why I'm trying so hard to find a different explanation. |
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TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 352 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64296289 03-29-2012 08:30 PM Yeah, you did say that it was Weindler. I think that was what I was referring to...maybe. ...Wait, did I indulge in the cousin theory too? I don't recall anything about saying that Jodaddy was the father of the cousin. Or maybe I did. ...Ah, forget it. :P Should've guessed that you were joking. :D Something else that was strange about that was that it seemed to be part of the plan to have someone that knew Weber to come looking for the proxy. Didn't he say that he was told that someone would come looking for him? The "Urasawa" character interpreted that as a way to give a warning, but maybe you're onto something about there being intentional sabotage... |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 353 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64296607 03-29-2012 09:54 PM That was Nagasaki, but the thing is, after what, 7 years? I'd imagine the investigation into Weber was pretty cold until the sketches came onto the market. If they didn't want people digging into it, all they had to do was a) not use Weber's name and b) dummy up some fakes and if someone came looking to see them, show them those and express disappointment that they turned out to be fakes. Oh, and not pay a fortune for them. :) If it was a warning, it was a very odd one, not to mention unnecessary. Yeah, I think it was you who suggested Jopapa could be Wiendler. Maybe (another ten posts and I'll go look it up). Or maybe someone suggested that to me in an email (that's a whole other section of my confoozled memory!). Anyway, if anybody did say it, he can't be, because Wiendler was one of Bonaparta's students, and if he was already a student, the whole thing with the mother asking Bonaparta to get her son into the military would've been moot. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 354 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 05-07-2012 08:06 PM It's been a while, but I've been busy. Anyway, I came across something... Who wrote this? It's obvious you've been reading this thread, or otherwise you wouldn't have known about Jomama being a twin. Show yourself and your brilliance! ^_^ Also, as a just for fun thing, I found an article a while back about how genetics could possibily influence how nice a person is. Maybe one of the reasons why Johan was screwed up was that he had the AA or AG genotype while Nina had the GG? Oh and... "Other research … indicates that the rates of GG or the so-called 'nice' genotype are much lower in East Asian populations. This is sparking an interesting discussion among psychologists about the roots of pro-social behavior. We know East Asian cultures are much more communal than other cultures. How do we explain that distinction?" ...And that's the real reason why Tenma never fit in. :P |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 355 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64795737 05-07-2012 08:58 PM That was an interesting read. But you can't assume the person who wrote it read the English translation or this thread. Maybe they speak Japanese! :) I'm not quite sure what the ultimate point was though. Was s/he saying that Johan had no excuse at all to be evil? After spending the whole article detailing how he came to be so? :) Johan was both a victim and a victimizer, and to say he was only a victimizer ignores the original statement, "It is not an either/or example, but an “and/also” scenario." Or was the point just that people should stop acting like Johan bore no responsibility for his actions because he was a helpless victim? That I can agree with, but I don't recall ever seeing anyone take that position, so... But it's nice to know that Monster is still gettin' some love out on the world wide web! So Tenma has the GG configuration? :) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 356 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64796401 05-08-2012 07:14 PM D'oh! I didn't consider the possibility of the author knowing Japanese! ^_^U I think the point was to show that while he did horrible things, he was still human and a victim as well as a victimizer. However, that does not excuse his actions. ...At least, that's what I got out of it. I hope I can make this semi-related, but I found it interesting about the statistics on East Asians given in that article I posted. I have a hypothesis: Since oxytocin is the "trust" hormone, I think the Japanese and other East Asian cultures have collectivist cultures to compensate for lessened trust in the general population. They need something external to affirm it. Now for the semi-related part: I had a discussion with InTheGarden about serial killers in the context of this series. One of the things I believe I said had something to with how easily a child will trust. Take Nina and Johan, for instance. Nina had suffered worse trauma than Johan at the point immediately after the RRM, but she was willing to trust that couple the two of them ran into. Johan killed them...which is in no way normal for any child, traumatized and abandoned or not. (Another thing that kinda started the discussion was me wondering about what would happen if someone like Tenma would have been sent to Kinderheim. My conclusion was that at best he'd be kicked out and at worst, he'd be like Grimmer.) I have my last final on Thursday, so maybe sometime after that I can attempt that thread summary thingy that I've been wanting to do. ^_^U Oh, and how could Tenma not have the GG combination? :-D |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 357 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64806817 05-20-2012 01:32 PM I'm not sure I put a lot of stock into that study just yet. Interesting if it turns out to be supported by further research though. :) Did we ever figure out when Nina was exposed to the books? And how did Johan get hold of the Nameless Monster? Did Bonaparta leave it with him when he took Anna and Nina away? Speaking of that, did he really just leave his precious gem alone in the apartment when he left with the others? That doesn't seem right to me. Surely he had someone watching over him, even if at a distance (although Chapek seems like the only candidate for that if Bonaparta didn't do it personally). Maybe that's how he was rescued from the fire so quickly. And speaking of the fire, it's still not clear to me whether that happened before or after Nina came back. Did he accidentally set the fire while trying to cook or something (I remember someone suggesting that), or did he set it purposefully to cover their escape, which sort of seems like it would have the opposite effect. Only if people thought the child had died in the fire would it make sense. Maybe it was Johan experimenting to see if he was being watched, or to try to fake his death so he could try to find Nina, and it didn't work because he got rescued (and then left alone in the apt. again! I guess the fire didn't do too much damage. :) ). Maybe if he set the fire while Nina was gone, for whatever reasons, that's what he was apologizing for in the scene Nina reenacts in the vampire's cottage. I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether his reading the Nameless Monster so thoroughly, and/or being watched and not rescued from the apartment for good (a sort of betrayal) may have affected his views on what would be necessary to protect Nina from adults. Nina was told not to become a monster, but did Johan learn during that time that he needed to become one? |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 358 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 64933324 05-20-2012 11:59 PM Meh, you're probably right. But science is cooool. :P I don't think we ever figured anything about about Nina's exposure to the books. But since Johan had The Nameless Monster storybook with him, that's most likely how she was exposed to that book. I think that may be the only book she was exposed to, but who knows? Nothing is explained. Explain, Urasawa, explain! Yeah, I doubt that Bonaparta wouldn't have someone watching over him. But the fire thing...that is interesting. Maybe that's how Johan started getting an interest in burning things. :-D Perhaps he wanted to destroy his memories in that way...or something. Speaking of that vampire house scene, I seem to get the impression that it's the mother who's apologizing. From sources that shall not be disclosed, the scene is like this: Where's mommy? *Jomama is shown from side view* I'm sorry... Why are you apologizing? Because...*another side view shot of Jomama is shown* The two of you...will have to survive together...all by yourselves... Why are you crying? Why are you crying? Don't cry! *line is repeated until Nina falls to her knees* I think it started out with Nina reenacting what she said to Johan, and then she shifted to another memory and started to reenact what their mother said to them before she was taken to the RRM. Everything after "Where's mommy?" sounds like an exchange between Jomama and Johan that happened at one point, probably right after the sadistic choice was made but before Nina was actually taken. I don't deny that that there were some environmental factors that could have shaped Johan. (I just posted that story because it made me think of this.) Yet I'm still inclined to think that a normal child in Johan's circumstances would not think of killing as a first response when scared of an adult. Running away or trying to come up with an escape plan, maybe, but not killing. There is the possibility that The Nameless Monster may have given him that idea, but it's hard to say for certain. (Would an average child get the same thing out of it that Johan did?) And Nina may have been told not to become a monster, but considering that she apparently didn't tell Johan that, that was likely irrelevant to her at that moment. In fact, it's likely that she forgot about it until that moment in Ruhenheim. I did think at one point that Bonaparta telling her that may have been what "saved" her, but I'm now skeptical. I think there's a lot of interaction between "nature" and environment here. Johan and Nina, while having similarities, also have fundamental differences. And while I did say that I was going to try and do a thread summary...that task seems to be way too daunting. D: I started something in a Word Document, but I just don't think I have the willpower to try and organize all the theories into something coherent. To end this post, here's the craziest crack theory I've ever found. :-D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 359 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 64940350 05-30-2012 03:57 PM Oh, I remember the scene that implied that Bonaparta's words kept Nina from becoming a monster now. ^_^U ...Yet even if he didn't tell her that, I doubt that she would turn into another Johan. /bump |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 360 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65053932 05-31-2012 10:15 PM Well, my analysis of that scene is at the link in the post (also scroll up a couple of posts to see more details about it in Konankun's post). I don't see I don't see how that exchange could have taken place before they were taken away, since she says "The two of you will have to survive together by yourselves." If this was before Johan was left behind, it makes no sense to say that, since she really didn't know what was going to happen next. Unless she knew about Bonaparta's plan. Which we've sort of decided she didn't. Now if she'd said, "You'll have to survive on your own," that could have been before she and Nina were taken away. (Would an average child get the same thing out of it that Johan did?) Well, probably not if they were just given the book to read. But he was reading it under very traumatic circumstances, having already been living under very bizarre circumstances for quite some time - well, from birth, to be honest - so with that rocky foundation, hearing about the massacre from Nina might well convince him that killing was the appropriate response to the threat that adults posed. Ah, I remember that blogger requesting the TL. :) If she ever drops in here, we can ask her how serious she was about it. I certainly enjoyed reading it though. I think I'm going to have to release the hounds on Krill... |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 361 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65068074 06-02-2012 02:13 AM *smacks forehead* Good point. She would have had to known about Bonaparta's plan. I was trying to find some way for that part to fit in, and I was thinking that she abandoned them then for some reason ...Oh, and sorry for not looking at that link. I guess I must have thought it wasn't that relevant at the time. ^_^U So I think a possible sequence of events is this: Nina is taken away->Jomama may have been taken in another car (IIRC that guy Tenma talked to said that Jomama was taken in the car with a child, but I don't recall if Jomama was actually in there with Nina. The man's memory could have been fuzzy.)->Jomama was sent back after several days, during which Johan was alone->Nina comes back some time afterward tells the story->She asks where their mother is->Jomama is found and she starts apologizing->One of the twins asks why she's apologizing->"Ano toki" refers to the time when she made the sadistic choice->She tells them they'll have to survive by themselves->Johan starts crying->Jomama asks why he's crying->She tells him not to cry->They're abandoned. That's the best I can come up with. That scene is very ambiguous. :/ Yes, that was definitely the case with Johan. But what I was asking was if a different child, being put into the exact same situation and reading that book, would react the same way as Johan did. ...Sorry, but the idea that any child could have turned into a Johan in those circumstances disturbs me and I'm trying to convince myself that it would be rare. I actually got a tumblr recently. There were a lot of Monster RPs popping up and I was reading them so often that I thought it would be best to get my own tumblr so I can easily find them in one place instead of googling them. I also got an interest in that particular person's blog. ...Heh, I don't feel crazy anymore for having a borderline obsession with |
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awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 362 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65078538 06-03-2012 06:55 AM Well, hiya! This is awonderfulname over at Tumblr. Just wanted to clarify that my long-winded entry had been because there was indeed two of the extremes going on in discussions I had witnessed: Johan being romanticized and there was hyperfocus on the tragedy of his character, or there were people who were flattening him into "purely evil" and someone who was born that way. It was just to show that we often have a dichotomous view on people rather than diunital, and that acknowledging the humanity or even the complex emotions and motives of someone who does awful things doesn't take away from how awful it is. Some people can't reconcile the two, so they either ignore the humanity of the "monster", or simply think that because the "monster" is humane, they are in fact simply misunderstood. I just was trying to show that it was sort of neither. Special thanks to GinaSzanboti for translating AM for other fans! I've been a fan of it for a very long time, and it's made me fascinated with Anna. Regarding the "Why are you crying?" chronology of events, I have my own thoughts that I'll post here later :D but I'm so glad to have come in and joined the discussion! I didn't even know it was still going on. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 363 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65089568 06-03-2012 02:35 PM COOL!! Welcome! Yeah, we're keeping the discussion going in fits and starts, hoping new people will drop in. I just know that if I had just read AM, I'd be dying to talk about it, and I'm partial to message boards over commenting on blogs, as it's easier to follow a discussion (and I guess I just prefer the format). I suppose this thread might be a bit overwhelming to people though. :) People keep telling me they're going to participate, and then they change their mind I guess. It still amazes me how little discussion there is out there, even old discussions - even on Spanish websites when people had access to the Spanish edition (heh, now even people in Spain who can't find the book there are looking for the English TL!). Anyway, I really did enjoy your entry, so I'm glad you came to clarify it. It would be great if we could get all the Monster bloggers to converge in one place and discuss the hell out of this thing. ;) Looking forward to any thoughts you have about some of the still-puzzling issues in AM and the sketches epilogue! |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 364 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65091394 06-03-2012 03:16 PM Btw, I was looking for something else and ran across this old post, which predates you guys, so I thought I'd link it. :) What I found newly creepy was my comment farther down the thread: "Except that Monster was written 1994-2001, Another Monster was written in 2002, and this happened in 2008. ... "But you gotta admit, the coincidence of the brainwashing being done at/by The Rose of the World is a pretty eerie one. :D I mean really, doesn't that sound like a group Urasawa would invent? Or rather, a name that someone involved with the Red Rose Mansion would apply to their revival efforts? >.>" Remember, this is before I knew about the epilogue in the Obluda book, published in...2008. And it's in Russia, which we were speculating might be the country that can't be touched by America. Duh, duh DUNNNNNNN! :-D |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 365 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65089568 06-03-2012 07:36 PM Welcome awonderfulname! :D (I ought to follow you now...I'm toongal there. Heh, I've used that username on three sites now, lol. There's a story behind it too, but that's for another time.) Great write-up. I like to think that Johan was a perfect storm, really: He had both the potential to become what he did and the environment to trigger it. If he had had a normal upbringing, he just may have been precocious, serious child who loved his sister. I've also wondered, though, if the same circumstances would always produce a Johan no matter what type of child they were. I really don't want it to be the case. >_<;; *reads Newsweek article Gina posted* Well that's a EDIT: By the way, I invited aberiamar, but she told me that the registration page was glitchy for her. >_> |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 366 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65091672 06-03-2012 07:36 PM Whoah! :O I just read that post, re: the brainwashing "seminars" and cultish mentality that led to the tragic suicidal ends of these Russians... that is a very interesting find! Actually, I'd love to engage you in a discussion sometime on brainwashing techniques, identity, and the real life implications of Monster. I don't think people (esp. people who haven't read AM) really fully comprehend what being raised like Johan, or being "intervened with" like the children at Kinderheim, can do to you. The right to identity is a very important one, and I think it's so "default" for us, especially in more consumerist societies, where we have individualistic identities that are associated with extensions of the self via personal/political/brand. That's a spooky, fun thread! As for the "why are you crying?" bit that Nina, while suffering a triggered flashback, recovered, I have to say I agree a bit more with your chronology. There are bits that bother me, and although it's vague, I think there's enough to at least piece together a few things. One is that there is no way Johan, in my eyes, would have the Nameless Monster before Nina was taken away. She certainly didn't recognize the book when she came back, and I just don't see Anna/Jomama as willing to allow him possession of a book by Bonaparta. Which she'd recognize, unless he hid it from her. So, Bonaparta was most certainly trying to send Johan some sort of message or shape/craft him in some way. Why? There are other alternatives to this here, too... anyway, this was around the time before Nina came back. So we know that Bonaparta had to have had contact with Johan then, or at least just simply left the book with him. But that would explain the fires, and why Johan didn't die in any of them. Now, let's see... Bonaparta has a change of heart, decides to destroy all that are involved in the project in an expression of "love" for Anna, and ends up telling Nina that final message before she runs away and back to the Three Frogs apartment. 1. How long was Nina at the RRM? She counted dozens of meals. Was she fed three times a day while in solitary confinement? We know it was at least a few days, then. 2. It's very unlikely that Anna would allow Bonaparta contact with Johan while Nina was gone. There is also the ambiguous statement of her leaving in a car, but it was obviously not the same car. Capek and Bonaparta left in the same car, so when did Anna leave? Who else was there to take her? If it was just a misconception by one of the residents, I don't think it would have been mentioned on panel/onscreen. But eh, there's no way to really determine this. Still, Johan was all alone. He was alone when Nina arrived, and had that book. The way I saw it, was that the Mother never came back. I think she simply abandoned Johan there, and that the final conversation was something she had with Johan, not Nina. She addressed "the two of you", but I don't think Nina was there. Johan was crying, and she apologized to him, and told him the two of them would have to keep on living on their own (I don't think it's necessarily that she was forced away from them, but she couldn't live with herself after that decision-- and then blah blah stuff about them carrying out revenge), and once she told him that he began to cry more and more. I think Nina came back, relayed everything to Johan, and then he started his strange "I have a plan" schedule where he drags Nina around, causing chaos to throw people off their trail/ensure her safety. I don't think Nina ever saw her Mother again after the day she made that "Sophie's Choice", to be honest. -Things that throw a kink in that -: The only thing that truly throws me off about that flashback is the "Where is my Mother/Where's Mommy" thing. It seems to be in Johan's voice, right? Would Johan ask that to Nina, if Anna had left so closely after her? Yeah, makes sense. Maybe he thought they were taken to the same place. If so, did he ask that after Nina had relayed everything ot him (since we saw "II'm home" "Welcome back" "Tell me everything")? Why with that tone? And why was that conversation relayed after? So did Anna come back after that, and tell them that she had to leave them? Still, Nina said "He was sitting here, alone, crying as he did back then", a part of me always took that as him being left alone in the room crying, rather than with his sister. I think a possibility is also that after Nina relayed everything to Johan and he absorbed it, Johan also relayed everything to Nina. I always wondered if the "Where's Mommy?" thing was directed at Franz Bonaparta, and not Johan to Nina/NIna to Johan. Maybe the conversation was with him? There are a lot of possibilities, but I find the implications of the whole thing less convoluted if Anna doesn't come back after Nina comes back and has that conversation with them. I think she abandoned Johan, told him him and his sister would have to survive on their own (which is why he was so adamant on getting out of there, he was entrusted to basically take care of his sister), left him alone crying, and Bonaparta came somehow and gave him the book. Still doesn't explain Anna being "taken away" or anything like that. Blah. But the way the inquiry of the Mom's whereabouts was presented, the tone and expression, just seemed like something directed at Franz or Capek or something, rather than sibling to sibling. |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 367 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65093502 06-03-2012 07:47 PM ToonGal! Yes, follow me if you'd like :) I'd follow back! Good to be here. "I've also wondered, though, if the same circumstances would always produce a Johan no matter what type of child they were. I really don't want it to be the case" I think that these things are never purely nature or nurture. Johan as a child exhibited "abnormalities", which were shaped by his environment and indubitably shaped his neurology (brain plasticity is pretty fun...), and I think he displayed some sociopathic tendencies from youth. However, it would be far too fatalistic, prescriptivist, and downright wrong to say that a child was "born" messed up when they aren't a good example for controlled factors. Johan was not raised with a solid sense of identity, nor a name -- he was the one that had to dress up as his sister, not the other way around, which probably shaped why he thought the world was for her/existed for her/everything was hers. He also has far less of a sense of self than she does, and seemed far more resigned to the nameless state (while Nina wanted a name called out to her while she lay dying at the Czech border). I think in the circumstances that Johan was raised under, many children would not end up exactly the same, however they would be very malleable and susceptible to later trauma (the stress levels they were exposed to at kinderheim 511, plus the chemical treatment would have caused ptsd in any child, and also can stunt brain growth in areas vital to "compassion). I think in most cases the children would not end up as serial murderers, however they would end up severely depersonalized due to lack of identity, which could cause a heap of psychological issues. I don't think any would have very healthy relationships without a sense of self. At the very least, they'd have attachment disorders... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/opinion/sunday/the-neuroscience-of-your-brain-on-fiction.html?_r=1 :) something sorta interesting, hahah. EDIT: You guys we should totally discuss supporting characters here after we get plotty stuff out of the way. And/or friendships, relationships and potential ones we'd love to see explored and talked about. Because I am a nut on those things and love going on and on and on... but ah, my obsession in Monster is probably Kinderheim 511. My parents grew up in both a strict communist society and a strict islamic society so since I was young, I was told a lot about secret police and orphanages under horrific conditions and blah blah and agh, i just love exploring the possibilities of what exactly Kinderheim 511 was like. The very disturbing implications in AM, of many of those boys going on to be Fathers and their firstborns dying... there's just so much to talk about. Oh, and just individual characters in general, especially re: the kinderheim survivors/boys (Grimmer, Johan, Roberto and Christof). Oh gosh, I'm only now rereading this entire thread. The stuff you guys have discussed on Sievernich and Fuhr and :-O everything... I need to dump a bunch of my AM theories on here, too. You guys are brilliant...there's a lot I thought I was alone in theorizing, and a lot I hadn't even considered! Such great attention to detail. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 368 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65093602 06-03-2012 08:39 PM *mostly stays out of conversation about what the hell the sequence of events were since she has given up* However, I think Gina had some speculation that Bonaparta actually planned the RRM massacre before he forced Jomama to make the sadistic choice. I think it had something to do with "The Door That Must Not Be Opened" story that Bonaparta pitched once. I'll let her elaborate on that. Agreed about things never being purely nature or nurture. ...And I was going to use Roberto as a counterexample for the serial killer thing, but I realized that he was just a hit man. When the wall fell and he no longer had a purpose, he was very open to suggestion. Johan provided his purpose. Even so, Kinderheim probably forged some sadistic tendencies in him. Interesting article! ...It may also explain fangirlish tendencies too. :P I simply find fiction to be an escape from reality. I find reality to be rather dull. So going into another world, getting into the minds of characters...it's fun. Another thing it crossed my mind was that people who enjoy reading fiction may tend to be more empathetic. Yet Bonaparta's storybooks were used to crush empathy. Very interesting... awonderfulname wrote: but ah, my obsession in Monster is probably Kinderheim 511. My parents grew up in both a strict communist society and a strict islamic society so since I was young, I was told a lot about secret police and orphanages under horrific conditions and blah blah and agh, i just love exploring the possibilities of what exactly Kinderheim 511 was like. The very disturbing implications in AM, of many of those boys going on to be Fathers and their firstborns dying... there's just so much to talk about. Oh, and just individual characters in general, especially re: the kinderheim survivors/boys (Grimmer, Johan, Roberto and Christof). Wow...your parents basically lived in one of the most screwed up societies imaginable, it sounds like. (No hate toward Islam, just to be clear, but extremist Islam or any other sort of religious extremism only causes problems.) Kinderheim must have been especially creepy for you. |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 369 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65093502 06-03-2012 08:43 PM Er, also, sorry for the spam, I promise I won't do this again :( But ToonGal, I wanted to address something you said a couple of pages back, since we're on the topic: "We've wondered for a long time when and why Anna just seemed to abandon the twins, but I wonder if the answer hasn't been staring us in the face all along and we didn't see it because it seemed out of character for her. In Bonaparta's love letter he clearly states, "You left me with beautiful jewels. Those two eternal twins." Now it seems like Bonaparta is the last person in the world Anna would leave her kids with, but maybe by then his brainwashing had taken hold enough for that to happen (like the Charter 77 activists doing 180 degree turns after he got hold of them). It seems like she came back to tell them they'd have to be on their own before she left, but maybe she was able to leave because she was told Bonaparta would be keeping watch, even if from a distance (and brainwashed, could accept this). Yeah, I'm reaching, but it's slightly more plausible to me than her just ditching them, and it explains the line in his letter. Otherwise, I'd think he would have said something like, "I've lost you, but I still have those beautiful jewels you left behind." ::shrugs:: Maybe that says the same thing. :/" I think that it's very plausible that she left the twins, and I actually think there's nothing wrong with it. Not that abandonment of children isn't wrong, but I mean that it doesn't discount her love for them or mean she's a bad Mother. She was severely traumatized and probably felt horrifically unfit to be a Mother after having given away one of her only children. This was after facing the trauma of the man she loved being killed (I 100% believe he died), and also those experiments messing with her own memory and mind. Even as an adult, she has spotty memory regarding the twins, and has repressed a lot concerning them. I think it's far more plausible that she abandoned them after being forced to make such a choice, rather than leaving them in Bonaparta's care. Bonaparta's phrasing in his letter is freaking creepy, because he was a creep. He was disgustingly entitled to Anna and her children, saw them as his own from the beginning, and the Monster's Love Letter to her was not to be taken...literally, I guess? I think it's a discredit to Anna to take the letter of her stalker seriously, when he obviously had a very twisted mindset. He diffused responsibility of his actions and obsession in so many ways, repeatedly, not only in the letter ( by implying that she had power over him and made him obsessed with her ), but even until his last moments alive in Ruhenheim. I'm with Grimmer, regarding Bonaparta. The brainwashing is a sad possibility, but I think her hatred for him was too powerful to overcome that. Unfortunately, the choice she had to make seemed to give her a complete mental breakdown, and she had to basically run from her past, as did Bonaparta, as did Nina (by regressing her memories), as did Johan (by erasing his existence). |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 370 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65094218 06-03-2012 09:27 PM Um...did I post that? *tries to remember and searches for post* I've posted so much in this thread that I have no idea what I've posted anymore. :D Could you tell me what page it's on? EDIT: Oh yeah, I seem to vaguely remember it now. Still want to find it, and I'm horrible at finding things... I do get the guilt thing, and she was traumatized. It's just that, well, she was being rather callous by just abandoning them. I would have found someone to take them in, at least. Though perhaps that could be explained by not being in her right mind. Oh, and I've made a convenient post on tumblr telling which Monster WMGs on TVTropes are mine. I specifically want to discuss #5 (as that goes with my "What would happen if someone different from Johan went through the same experiences he did?" thing), though #7 is interesting too and people seem to like it a lot. ^_^ |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 371 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65094612 06-03-2012 09:51 PM #5 is my favourite! I like theorizing how Kinderheim 511 would have shaped not only other Monster characters, but characters from other series I love, as well. Though, with Tenma, I believe he didn't have the rage issues that Grimmer did, which Franz Bonaparta discussed was what caused Grimmer (and others) to so severely disassociated. I think he would have been the most similar to him in comparison to the very limited example we have of other survivors of Kinderheim, but I think there would be notable differences. He'd definitely be the well-meaning guy who tried to get back in touch with his emotions and attempted to simulate emotions like Grimmer did, I think... I guess to me, Tenma was a very weak child, as we saw. He was picked on often and rather insecure, a more passive person. I think he would have to have broken from that for survival reasons, and have moments where those instincts kicked in and it could resemble a disassociation, but I mostly think he'd go the depressive route rather than the aggressive one. He tends to internalize things too much. They would have a lot of interesting similarities and differences...in my head. There's no real reason or way to tell, I guess. ;-) Tenma having no identity means he's less likely to hold on to any steadfast "beliefs" he has, which takes away something super essential to his character. There's also the fact that he'd be very desensitized to violence and killing, and have gone through abuse. I think he'd be very congenial and "tenma-like" on the outside, but it would be a very scary mask hiding beneath it a depressive, empty person deep down. When in danger, I could see him becoming very cold about doing what needed to be done. |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 372 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65094872 06-03-2012 10:37 PM Which is still a bit of a toned-down Grimmer. :) Another thing that occurred to me long after posting that WMG is that the Magnificent Steiner may have strongly appealed to a sense of justice in Grimmer. Who's to say that it couldn't effect someone like Tenma in the same way? I'd like to think that he would be resistant initially, though you're right in that he was passive and sensitive. Still, I think he would have a survivor mentality, trying to convince himself that he can get through it and to prove to himself that he can conquer it. I thought Tenma would be the most interesting "What if?" since he's so good. Yet thinking about it really disturbed me at the same time, since I had been reading some fan fic that compared Tenma to Johan at the time and I was thinking: "Oh God, what if he could have become another Johan? D: It would be scary if such a kind person could be twisted in that way..." Thankfully, I think I ruled that out. Though I do think that they have some similarities in that the equality of life was a major issue for both of them and that they both experienced loneliness and felt like they didn't belong anywhere. I believe the comparison should stop there, though, as I believe that they represent the extremes of hope and despair. Tenma and Johan may have dealt with similar issues, but they both went in completely different directions because of their differences. (That, and Tenma wasn't traumatized as a child like Johan was.) Let's do another fun one: What about Lunge? XD ...I think he would just turn into a cold, calculating killing machine for some reason. EDIT: Wow, I'm...lilac now? That's a much nicer color than that ugly brown! ^_^ |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 373 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65094612 06-03-2012 10:50 PM TophBeiFong wrote: Um...did I post that? No that was me. :) I'm just reading all this with delirious joy, and I'm going to reply to this all tomorrow when I have more time to give these posts the attention they deserve, but didn't want you to go to bed feeling like you'd been memory wiped. ;) @ wonderful (can I call you wonderful?): No such thing as spam in this thread, insofar as multiple posts in a row. We get so long-winded sometimes, that insisting that people not follow their own posts like some places do, would leave us with novels instead of posts! Post as much and as often as you have something to say! |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 374 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65095724 06-03-2012 11:10 PM Are you sure? ...Oh man, false memories strike again! Only this time, it's Gina and me and not Johan and Nina. XD I second calling this person wonderful. ...If she's okay with it. :P EDIT: How did I go from lilac to brown again? I WANT THAT COLOR BACK!!! T_T |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 375 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65094612 06-03-2012 11:23 PM I'm sure. :) You were a Swim Count while you had 123 posts. Once you made the 124th post, you went back to being a Nerd. Sucks, doesn't it. mysteries of ranks explained |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 376 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65095924 06-04-2012 05:30 AM I laughed at that X) Oops, I guess this makes me Anna. I can't tell you guys apart ? No, sorry for the mix-up! And I do agree that it's very possible that Bonaparta had planned the RRM massacre before he made Anna make that choice. :O hm... Roberto was very open to suggestion. I think he already would have been completely messed up, but... we never know what direction he would have fully went into. It seems Kinderheim arranged for which families took which kids, which simulated neighborhoods or programs they went into after, etc. Roberto might have been put into a very messed up one. We really don't know what he was doing before Johan gave him "purpose" and something to look forward to, other than that he was completely lost, psychologically. (Yes, call me wonderful! That sounds so vain...) |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 377 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65097254 06-04-2012 11:01 AM How about awon? :) Or won? Or A-1? (brainwashed by advertising, I keep thinking of Wonderful Pistachios or Pom Wonderful) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 378 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65098852 06-04-2012 05:53 PM Those are some complicated post ranks. :D Looks like I won't have a real change until I hit 500. Awon is too close in spelling to Amon. W's are upside-down m's, I tell you! That settles it: awonderfulname is Amon. (A reference to The Legend of Korra for the uninitiated.) Yeah, nothing to really add. :P |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 379 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65102426 06-04-2012 07:17 PM Lunge in Kinderheim would be pretty scary, I think. He's so absolutely intellectual and ruthless, I think he'd be a match for Johan, honestly. |
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abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 380 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-04-2012 08:13 PM Abeiramar here! Thank you Gina for helping me regist in the Adult Swim boards ^W^ !! Everybody is discussing so many interesting things! About that Jomama and Tenma being twins theory: I wasn't being serious. It just crossed my mind and I thought it would be fun to share. But Jomama looks a bit like Tenma because of that cool hawk nose, doesn't she? I think if Tenma went through Kinderheim 511 he... he wouldn't be the Tenma we know anymore... Maybe he would kill himself, that's what Franz said that it's most likely to happen to Kinderheim 511 children. However, he is so strong willed that I honestly have my doubts he would to that to himself. I'm more inclined to believe he would be more like Johan than Grimmer... Grimmer had something to cope with during his torture - the Magnificent Steiner cartoon. And what would Tenma use as a way of coping...? BUT let's suppose Tenma comes out alive from Kinderheim511, still persued a medical career. and managed not to be "evil" like Johan and Roberto. Franz Bonaparta's books would still mess up his brain so he would probably by set on robbing his patients' identity. He would perform brilliant surgeries just for the sake of perfection... but everytime one of his patients died he would take his dead patient's name and identity. Kinda like the Nameless Monster in an odd way e.e . Okay, I better change subject. The Sobotka chapter really creeped me out. Mr. Sobotka's backstory was a lot like Grimmer's... both their children mysterously died... I didn't like how it implied that the father could be the cause of the children's death. In no shape or form I accept Grimmer to be the cause of his son's death :( . But it's so bizarre... it's like the seminars placed a curse on the victims and their future descendants... Like, they were not allowed to have children :S . About relantionSHIPS, I'm very interested in Tenma's interactions with other people so I ship him with everyone - He's so cute and tender ♥♥ . When I finished Monster I had an huge soft spot for Grimmer/Tenma but then it spread to another pairings... till I found him adorable next to anyone even with Dr. Becker and Mr. Mauler (the cigarette guy that dies along with Nina's parents). |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 381 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65093504 06-04-2012 09:45 PM Ok, wow, your theories got the tumblers rolling in my head, and after looking at the manga pages again for that scene, I think I've got a theory that covers everything! Here are the relevent pages of the manga: 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. As you suggested, I think that that entire conversation is between Nina and Bonaparta. She's just seen everyone drop dead, and she and Bonaparta are the only ones left standing. Nina: Where's Mommy? Bonaparta: I'm sorry. Nina: Why are you apologizing? Bonaparta: Back then... (referring to taking her from the apartment?) The two of you will have to survive together, all by yourselves. ... Why are you crying? Why are you crying? Don't cry. Don't cry! Don't cry!! (He's doing his stupid best to be soothing, and is disconcerted by her crying, and loses it. I would put what we know he told her about being beautiful jewels and not becoming a monster and running away, right after this) I think at this point, after she recovers from her swoon, triggered by the memory of being told not to cry, she's now talking about Johan crying alone in the cottage, and the "back then" she refers to about his crying is probably imagining/feeling him crying alone in the apartment after she and their mother were taken away. If he cried in front of her when she returned (and to my knowledge, the only time he ever did that was in the ruined building after she told him the truth), then he wouldn't have been alone, so the present day situation wouldn't have been just like that time. Even though we see images of Anna, it looks to me like those images are Nina remembering the last time she saw Mommy. Anna has that steely, hateful look she was giving Bonaparta when he made her choose, and it doesn't go at all with her apologizing or the kindly expressions on Nina's face as she reenacts that. Also, Anna's image comes after the "back then" ("because" in this TL, but the Japanese says ano toki), which to me suggests her flashing on how Anna looked back then. The shifts in the angle of Nina's head may just reflect Bonaparta not quite being able to look her in the eye after he told her that, rather than looking at someone else. With this explanation, Anna doesn't need to come back to the apartment to tell anybody anything. It also suggests to me that Bonaparta sent her off to hide her for awhile, until he erased her memory or she escaped from there or whatever. But it explains better why she left them, than her going back and explaining to them they would be on their own. Heck, maybe Bonaparta told her they were dead. As for the taking away bit - I think Bonaparta left with Anna, and Chapek left with Nina in separate cars. Bonaparta probably drove Anna somewhere, while there was an official driver for Chapek's car (he was in the passenger seat, we never saw the driver, but Chapek sort of speaks about Bonaparta as if he weren't there). So what do you think? Am I epileptic treeing? ^.^ PS: "It's very unlikely that Anna would allow Bonaparta contact with Johan while Nina was gone." I don't see how she would have much choice in the matter (especially if she weren't still in the apartment). It's like saying she allowed Bonaparta contact with Nina. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 382 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 65104132 06-04-2012 10:11 PM Yay, you made it! Welcome!! I've never quite known what to make of the deaths of the children. If they were all single parents, then maybe I can see the fathers' lack of emotional connection as contributing to their fatal failure to thrive. But if they were receiving love and attention from their mothers, then I don't think distant fathers would be a lethal situation. That's a circumstance that's far too prevalent in the real world, for generations, and I think someone would have noticed by now if there were a correlation. Unless the fathers are actually killing them, and supressing the memory of doing so, I don't see any "rational" explanation. Viral depression? So this is one of my few points of fallback to supernatural shennanigans. It's EVIL that's killing the babies!! The Beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is stealing their will to live! :) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 383 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 65104132 06-04-2012 10:36 PM @awonderfulname: Agreed with Lunge and Kinderheim. @abeiramar: Welcome! abeiramar wrote: I think if Tenma went through Kinderheim 511 he... he wouldn't be the Tenma we know anymore... Maybe he would kill himself, that's what Franz said that it's most likely to happen to Kinderheim 511 children. However, he is so strong willed that I honestly have my doubts he would to that to himself. I'm more inclined to believe he would be more like Johan than Grimmer... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO*gasps for breath*OOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! T_T In all seriousness though, I'm not sure if I see him becoming like Johan. First of all, Johan had experiences that shaped him prior to Kinderheim. Second, Tenma is capable of boiling rage, but he almost never gets to that point. Kinderheim, however, could provide more opportunities for him to get angry. And despite acting aggressive at times, he seems to dislike violence and is hesitant in a straight physical confrontation. Both Roberto and Martin beat him up silly. The most physical things he did include stepping on a neo-Nazi's foot, pushing (including pushing Roberto off a bookcase), and IIRC, hitting the man shooting at Grimmer and Suk in the head with his gun to knock him unconscious. Grimmer is scared of his violent tendencies and never fights back either (until The Magnificent Steiner "arrives," of course). Third, while strong-willed, Tenma seemed to be more sensitive than Johan. Could you imagine a child Johan, even before Bonaparta found them, getting scared of being alone in an abandoned lot and peeing his pants when someone jumps him? I think not. Fourth, Tenma had a strong sense of justice at a young age. I imagine Grimmer did too, and that's why The Magnificent Steiner appealed to him. TMS took the superhero archetype and twisted it. Who's to say that Tenma wouldn't have been glued to that show too? Of course, there's also the possibility he would have been kicked out, have a deadened emotional response, and become scared of storybooks for the rest of his life. I think Erna Tietze mentioned that in AM. @Gina: I never considered Franz Bonaparta being one of the speakers! Uh...wow...o_O |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 384 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65105948 06-04-2012 04:48 PM I wouldn't have either until wonderful mentioned it. :) TophBeiFong wrote: Uh...wow...o_O Does that mean you're buying it? :) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 385 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65106074 06-04-2012 10:53 PM I...I don't know. I've just about given up on that scene. :P EDIT: I think I found a kink in that theory. Bonaparta featured prominently in Nina's flashbacks. Bonaparta didn't appear in this one, so it's unlikely he was there. |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 386 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65105420 06-05-2012 07:00 AM First, lemme address this: ""It's very unlikely that Anna would allow Bonaparta contact with Johan while Nina was gone. " I don't see how she would have much choice in the matter (especially if she weren't still in the apartment). It's like saying she allowed Bonaparta contact with Nina." I agree with that entirely. I merel mentioned it because a couple of pages back, it was suggested that under brainwashing, she would have left Johan to be under supervision of Bonaparta, however unwilling. I definitely think she would never do this, but it's not like she had a choice in the matter, as you said. That's all I was addressing :) As for the rest... I'm very happy with this theory. I never saw it as between the mother and either of the twins, I thought it was far more likely to be Bonaparta and Johan, or Bonaparta and Nina. I'm willing to accept it was Bonaparta and Nina AND Johan, too, but I am more inclined to agree with you that it was Bonaparta and Nina. In AM (I really need to reread it, it's been so long. I'll get my copy out tonight), I believe they talked about some fabled psychic link between Nina and Johan? So the best we can come up with is that if Johan didn't relay his emotions to Nina (that he had been crying alone when he was left there), or if relay his conversation with Bonaparta, that she either "knew" about it or it happened with her and Bonaparta. Of course, the most likely answer is her and Bonaparta. Isn't it interesting, that Bonaparta made Anna make the decision, but then she got taken away, anyway? It makes me wonder if Anna knew that whichever kid she chose, the other one wouldn't technically or necessarily be "free" from whatever there was to inflict on the child. After all, if she got taken away right after, and Johan was abandoned/brainwashed with a book...hm. Anyway, that decision broke her, and it's interesting that Johan tried to recreate it in many ways with the decision between Wim and himself, giving Tenma a choice to corrupt/break him. It also suggests to me that Bonaparta sent her off to hide her for awhile, until he erased her memory or she escaped from there or whatever. But it explains better why she left them, than her going back and explaining to them they would be on their own. Heck, maybe Bonaparta told her they were dead." You are my HERO. This is what I was thinking the whole time, but you've put it together in a sequence that all makes sense to me. I pretty much think it makes the most chronological and canonical sense, period, for this conversation to be between Bonaparta and Nina. THANK YOU B) I agree wholeheartedly with all of this. |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 387 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65105948 06-05-2012 07:05 AM Keep in mind that Roberto couldn't even kill a bug when he was younger. I don't think there's anyone too good-natured or strong-willed enough to not break psychologically when it comes to brainwashing, trauma and abuse. If tenma became a doctor, I think he would have honestly killed his patients in messed up ways. I don't really like the implications of overcoming such trauma, abuse or brainwashing being about how "good" you are :( the best of soldiers and even the kindest of children can become desensitized to violence, turned into child soldiers, brainwashed, etc. Tenma definitely would have become like Grimmer, though, but I do think he would be unethical in a lot of ways in life. Grimmer was lucky enough to split his violence into another personality. But if he blacked out, we will never know if he had control over who he hurt when he was the Magnificent Steiner, or every instance he turned into it . Luckily, as a spy, he was often triggered into that state in appropriate situations, such as around combatants and dangerous persons. I overall agree though that Tenma would be a lot more like Grimmer than like Johan if he were 511'd. Edit: Could people be kicked out of Kinderheim? I recall them being kicked out of the reading seminars, but not Kinderheim... unless they were transferred or "placed" into "work" or "families" haha...jeez, I'm rereading Another Monster tonight. I will be useless in this convo if I can't remember little details like this! |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 388 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65106148 06-05-2012 07:15 AM Ah, I contest that. here is why: http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f184/GinaSzanboti/Steiner%20screencaps/Monster%20scene/158-8.jpg to me, this page shows that this was seriously Nina's last image of her Mother. That cold, hateful, look of turmoil and contemplation, before she picked "this one...No, this one!" Surely, she would have remembered her Mother, or it would have shown her speaking with her as Bonaparta did (with the repeated, revisited flashback of "humans...can become anything") And what do we make of "Where's Mommy?" Was that Johan that said it? Nina? Would Johan ask NINA that? Would Nina ask Johan that? We know that's not what Nina or Johan said to one another when they were reunited. This tells me that after they were reunited, someone visited them for one of them to ask "Where's Mommy?" in that cold look. Who? If we subscribe by the theory that Anna returned, only to abandon her children, then we must accept she did this under brainwashing, and was given one last goodbye after she had her name returned to her. Did she go into hiding? If so, why couldn't she take her children? It seemed to me it truly would have been that she saw herself unfit as a Mother, so she abandoned them. But it becomes too convoluted at this point, and I think such a flashback would have been drawn, because that's pretty pivotal, if that's the last time either of them saw their Mother. But Johan nor Nina never make any mentioning of a final goodbye with their Mother. Consistently, both fo their latest flashbacks of that time is her giving Nina up. So I think the Bonaparta theory makes the most sense. You can definitely make Anna one of the speakers, but the "Where's Mommy?" thing still tells me Bonaparta came to visit them after (which would, imo, explain to me why Johan got freaked out, burned the place, and ran with Nina. And then kept on running, and killing, and freaked out so much when Bonaparta visited the Lieberts. The coldness in the voice of the inquiry of the Mother's whereabouts denotes, to me, fear and hatred, neither Johan or Nina would direct that at one another, so it had to be Bonaparta. He probably said he'd come back for them, since he saw them as his "jewels" lolol, so Johan went into survival mode and made sure he'd never take Nina away again, especially after being messed up by that book). Also, it seems sort of strange, then, because of this: I. We posit that it was one conversation. A.) If it was one conversation, then "Where's Mommy?" was asked to the same person apologizing to them and telling them to survive on their own. Who else could that be but Bonaparta? II. It was TWO conversations. B.) "Where's Mommy?" is asked to one person (an exchange between Nina and Johan, or an exchange between one/both of the twins and Bonaparta), then C.) Nina switches to her Mother telling her/Johan/Them that they must survive on their own, apologizes, and tells them desperately to stop crying . Why would there be such an abrupt switch of conversation? This can only make chronological sense to be recovered in one flashback if "Where's Mommy?" was directed at Bonaparta, and then Anna comes out behind him, messed up/brainwashed, and says her goodbye. To me, the first one is the least convoluted, but the second one can fit in, it just is odd that Nina would not address the rest of the "Where's Mommy?" conversation unless it was a prelude to C.)... the two conversations should go together, otherwise they were recovered in one flashback but took place at very separate times. They can take place at the same time, but be between two different people, if Anna was shown the twins right after they asked where their Mother was. |
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| abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 389 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-05-2012 08:00 AM I never thought about Bonaparta being the one speaking either....!! That's interesting! And what awonderfulname said makes a LOT of sense! ((I always tought that scene took place after Nina told Johan her memories. Nina asks where her mommy is. Then Jomama arrives and tells the twins she's going to abandon them. Johan starts to cry and Jomama begs him to stop.)) However, what happens afterwards?... The conversation Tenma has with the Three Frogs neighbour is very odd (chapter 87). It seems Jomama was taken along with Nina, and Johan was left alone. Johan, alone, accidentally sets the apartment on fire. But was that BEFORE or AFTER the Red Rose Mansion Incident ?_? It seems it was after so... Were Nina and Jomama taken AGAIN by Franz Bonaparta?? About Kinderheim511!Tenma, TophBeiFong, after what you said I now realize you might be right... Tenma most likely wouldn't end up as messed up as Johan, or Roberto and Chirstopf... Maybe he would come out of there with identity issues and inability to have emotions but he would try his best to over come these flaws like Grimmer... I don't know, it's hard to immagine Tenma without his compassion... Thinking about what would happen if he went through Kinderheim 511 is depressing. However, Tenma IS a genius and he managed to get what he wanted with his bullies. They became his friends. Tenma could turn around the tables with Kinderheim's 511's brainwashing, he could easily learn the "mechanisms" of the stories and create some to use against his teachers. Maybe he could disband Kinderheim 511 and escape, like Johan did, except without the massacre... And... a kid who could create his own stories was exactly what Franz Bonaparta was looking for at his seminars... wasn't it? That "perfect" kid did show up in the novel if I remember correctly. And I don't think it was Johan, it was someone else... which is much more scary. Another Monster implied that there are otherpeople like Johan... or worse than him. In the end, Tenma's and co.'s journey was just the tip of the iceberg :( ... |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 390 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65107956 06-05-2012 09:52 AM awonderfulname wrote: You can definitely make Anna one of the speakers, but the "Where's Mommy?" thing still tells me Bonaparta came to visit them after (which would, imo, explain to me why Johan got freaked out, burned the place, and ran with Nina. And then kept on running, and killing, and freaked out so much when Bonaparta visited the Lieberts. The coldness in the voice of the inquiry of the Mother's whereabouts denotes, to me, fear and hatred, neither Johan or Nina would direct that at one another, so it had to be Bonaparta. He probably said he'd come back for them, since he saw them as his "jewels" lolol, so Johan went into survival mode and made sure he'd never take Nina away again, especially after being messed up by that book). Although I like your reasoning here, I don't think Bonaparta came to the apartment again either. I think that once Nina ran away from the mansion, that's the last she saw of either Mommy or Bonaparta (until the end). It seems pretty clear to me now that she's asking Bonaparta where her mother is because a) she knew he took her too, and b) everybody has just dropped dead in front of her and she's afraid he's killed her mother too. Look at that face! That's the face of someone who's just seen something horrific and is both stunned and terrified that worse is coming. For a long time I thought that Johan set the fire to cover their escape, but the thing about the child being rescued always bugged me (it's one of those details that no matter how I think about it just throws a wrench into everything) The only way the fire covers the escape is if people think they're dead. Otherwise it just draws attention to the fact that at least one of them is there and still alive. But then it also bugs me that if the fire happened before Nina came back, how was Johan still living alone in the apartment? Surely the authorities wouldn't just leave him on his own there, once they became aware of his situation (unless Bonaparta pulled some strings, but that seems like it would have interfered with his plans at the RRM). Finally, I mentioned the thing about leaving her kids to Bonaparta because I was desperately trying to rationalize an answer to how she could come back and tell her children in person that they were on their own and then go into hiding without taking them with her. It was the only thing that even remotely made sense, but I still hated the theory. :) Now I can gleefully abandon it! Oh, and yes, you could be kicked out of Kinderheim. Tietz said she got a few boys from there, but most or all of them died shortly after. They were the ones who would scream if you tried to read to them. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 391 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 65108152 06-05-2012 09:58 AM abeiramar wrote: And... a kid who could create his own stories was exactly what Franz Bonaparta was looking for at his seminars... wasn't it? That "perfect" kid did show up in the novel if I remember correctly. And I don't think it was Johan, it was someone else... which is much more scary. I think the consensus is that it was Wiendler, who tells Weber on the phone that he was Bonaparta's best student. :) |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 392 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65108880 06-05-2012 12:12 PM You're right. I don't think Bonaparta came back to the apartment now that I think of it, either. I do think that Nina relayed the story to Johan, then they set fire and left. That was the second fire (the first one was the accidental ones Johan started when living alone) which i will address here: "But then it also bugs me that if the fire happened before Nina came back, how was Johan still living alone in the apartment? Surely the authorities wouldn't just leave him on his own there, once they became aware of his situation (unless Bonaparta pulled some strings, but that seems like it would have interfered with his plans at the RRM)." My parents lived under the Soviet Communist occupied countries, and trust me: A child could be living alone in an apartment for quite some time before anybody knew. And Johan was probably too afraid to leave, anyway. There's also the rationalization that many of the other inhabitants of the apartment didn't want to investigate it further because they assumed that since she only had one child (a daughter), both had been taken away, and they probably thought it had to do with the government and dissidence, so yeah. Hmm...I've confused myself.................. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 393 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65110328 06-05-2012 01:00 PM Even here, kids can be left alone for a long time without anyone realizing it. My problem is that after the fire, a child was rescued from the apartment and then allowed to continue living alone there? That seems insane, no matter how you slice it. It sounds a little problematic even if it was an adult! :) I mean, fire and smoke damage, danger to the other occupants...very odd. And I didn't realize there were two fires at the 3 Frogs. oO You wouldn't happen to have the chapters/episodes to source that, would you, because I'm coming up blank. :) |
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| abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 394 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-05-2012 02:05 PM Well, two fires are the only plausible option... The man that speaks with Tenma says that the three frogs apartment had several fires. And Jomama was taken along with Nina, I wonder where did she go? Did she stay at the red rose mansion while Nina was in the dark room? Here's the script of the dialogue between Tenma and the man in chapter 87:
I still can't figure what or when this happened... @__@ It says Johan went missing... without Nina? Hun? Did this happen when she was at the Red rose mansion? It also frustrastes me that there aren't any interviews with Naoki Urasawa about Monster... I read all the ones I could find translated in English and it seems he mirrored a bit of Tenma's childhood on his own. |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 395 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 65111630 06-05-2012 02:39 PM It's managed to survive through all the fires and wars! Even that one fire... Less than twenty years ago... Sounds like one fire to me. :) "All the fires" I think just means that over 200 years it never burned down, despite all the chaos and war and fire it's been through - or at least the sign always survived. The first time I heard it, I just assumed they set a fire and ran off. Then I realized they mentioned rescuing a child, and that's where all the problems started for me. What was the point of allowing one of them (which one?) to be rescued? If it was just Johan, I'm surprised he needed rescuing, if it wasn't his plan. That's when I started thinking the fire was during Nina's absence, and I speculated he might have been testing his watchers (to see if they existed?). Might also explain why he was allowed to stay there alone. ::shrugs:: One has to wonder about the reliability of a witness who can't remember whether a pretty child with waist-length hair in bows and skirts was a boy or girl though. :) And how did he know she used an alias? oO |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 396 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65110766 06-05-2012 02:52 PM Nah, you are right, there is no specification. I thought two fires only made sense, but the only fire then was the one Johan and Nina set when they escaped. But...a child was rescued, like it says. I had figured that the child being rescued meant that the second one was considered "all those fires", but since there was no evidence that any children were rescued from it and no bodies were found no survival was mentioned? Like I said, two fires only make sense to me, simply because the wording of what the man says doesn't negate them, but it also doesn't support it, either. Nina and Johan set a fire, we know that, and neither of them were "rescued" from it, so that means there's a fire other than that... right? Lmao, kill me this is getting so confusing |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 397 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-05-2012 06:16 PM Too much data...processing slowed. @_@ Kinderheim Theorizing: @awonderfulname: It's just the idea of someone who would have been good person under normal circumstances being able to go so far in the other direction that's very, very disturbing to me. And it's not just a Tenma @abeiramar: Yes. Yes it is depressing to think about. Which is why I needed to get it out of my head by discussing it. ^_^U ...And that's an interesting possibility, actually. Maybe instead of Johan, he would be more of a hybrid of Fuer/Weindler and Grimmer. Well, let's get on to less depressing things...like trying to analyze that scene! (Yes, with Monster, that is somehow less disturbing than contemplating the mental breakdown of your favorite character as a child in an orphanage of doom.) |
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| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 398 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65114598 06-05-2012 07:07 PM Nina's WTF Flashbacks: Okay, I had a good theory going that would refute the Bonaparta theory, but it was ruined by the detail that the exact line was, "The two of you have to survive together all by yourselves." I was going to speculate that Jomama could have referring to each twin's individual situation, which could still place that line before Nina is taken away, since she could have believed that she would never see her children again. But that detail ruined it. :/ ...Still, the fact that her expression seems to be one of anger/hatred is a good point. ...Maybe something will come up another time. ^_^U |
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| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 399 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65112280 06-05-2012 10:23 PM awonderfulname wrote: Nina and Johan set a fire, we know that, Hold up, how do we know the fire was set by them after they were reunited? And what the old guy said in the manga only indicates one fire, 20 years ago, but as I said, if something else contradicts him, I'd go with the contradiction, since it seems like he's not all that observant, or is forgetful in his old age. :) Chapter 15 of AM has it that the fire was "a few weeks" after Anna and Nina were taken away (reiterating that both were taken at the same time, in one car, but to me it just did not seem like Anna was in the same car as Nina in her flashbacks). So as you pointed out, I guess it hinges on how long Nina was in the box. And how long is "soon afterwards" that the rescued child disappeared? :) It's unclear where Weber got his information - did he interview the same people and get the same story, with the addition that Tenma had been there asking, or did he also confirm it independently, like maybe a newspaper story about a fire (or fires)? At any rate, he only mentions one fire. I don't think I'm ever going to see this resolved to my satisfaction. :) I still lean toward the idea that Johan set the fire to cover Nina's escape, because this version doesn't require the authorities to put him back in the apartment alone. But I just don't see the value of letting himself (or whichever twin it was) be rescued when people apparently thought the place was empty (and I can't imagine Johan putting Nina in danger or needing to be rescued himself). They could have just left. The only thing I can think of is that he stole supplies for them from his rescuers before disappearing to meet up with Nina. :( |
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| awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 400 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65117260 06-05-2012 10:34 PM Oh jeez, I have a lot to say on all of this (mostly agreeing with you, as always), but the reason why I think the fire took place after is because...well, there is a clear scene in both the anime and the manga of Johan running away with his sister from the apartment with nina, while people shout that there's a fire. http://mangafox.me/manga/monster/v16/c141/3.html See? (Also, wow, I really do wonder how long Johan was left alone... I set it at two weeks at the most), one week at the least) also i reread AM tonight, but am too tired to say anything right now. that will come later :P but yeah, it doesn't seem like Anna was in the same car as Nina, especially since Nina had such vivid memories of who was in the front seat, and even of every piece of scenery through the window/all the landscape (how else would hse have been able to run from the RRM all the way to the 3 Frogs and know how to get there at that young of an age?) If the fire was set a few weeks, then it really does say to me that Johan was left alone longer than I thought he was, too :\ wow |
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