GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 501 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 68137285 06-01-2013 04:07 PM I forgot to ask - where did you find the Italian edition and what is it called? Also the ISBN number would be helpful! Thanks! Once I had the Spanish name and ISBN number I found lots of places online claiming to sell it (but all were sold out when I tried to order), but so far I've only found one site that seems to have the Italian, and it's unclear if it's actually in Italian. |
abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 502 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 68138177 06-02-2013 08:23 AM "The Nameless Monster" book is going to be released in Spanish ::cat happy::. It's going to be the first translated version of the Nameless Monster book! I can't WAIT to have it. The Spanish Amazon already listed it in its website, http://www.amazon.es/Monster-El-monstruo-nombre-Seinen-Manga/dp/8415480083/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370184470&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=monstro+sin+nombre but the date is wrong! I don't know why it says May It's totally coming in November XD. * I bought the italian Another Monster book on Amazon. Amazon.es and amazon.it sometimes have it: http://www.amazon.es/Another-monster-investigative-report-Planet/dp/8865895241/ref=sr_1_1?s=foreign-books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370184745&sr=1-1&keywords=another+monster and http://www.amazon.it/Another-monster-The-investigative-report/dp/8865895241/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370184859&sr=8-1&keywords=another+monster I bought it when it was at a very good price. you can also order directly from the publisher: http://www.paninicomics.it/web/guest/productDetail?viewItem=686088 Here's its data:
Synopsys (Translated): "By Werner Weber, Naoki Urasawa and Takashi Nagasaki, a novel about the unsolved mysteries in the investigations narrated in Monster! In this informative book, which is a great follow-up of the famous manga, readers will see again many of the characters of the comic interviewed by journalist Weber. While it sheds light in Tenma's past, a series of gruesome murders take place in Austria. Is the "Monster" back? A single volume of its kind about the story of Tenma and Johan, aimed at fans of the comic book series and fans of thrillers. 13x18, B., b / w., With dust cover" Italian is pretty easy to figure out if you already know a romance language and use a dictionary or google translate ;-) |
| abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 503 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 68146977 06-02-2013 08:38 AM I forgot to specify I bought it at Amazon.es. I don't know why they don't have it now! The book appears and disappears quickly of their stock. I bought it at 8 euros + 6 euros of shipping + VAT (15 euros in total). I hope you find a copy at a reasonable price and since the book is a recent publication it will take a long time till it goes completly out of print. |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 504 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 68147003 06-02-2013 12:31 PM Thanks for the info! I hope ordering through Amazon is easier than the other Spanish online sites. By the time I figured out a way around the webpage's insistence on a FID number that, not being in the EU, I didn't have, it was sold out. At least if they give me trouble, I can try going through their US channels. If it does sell out quickly, maybe they'll do a reprint! Yeah, I think I might have to get the Nameless Monster in Spanish... :) I wish you guys would come back and discuss here. I can't figure out how to follow a discussion on Tumblr for the life of me. :/ |
| abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 505 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 68147969 06-02-2013 01:40 PM At amazon.com they are selling it trough a store ! Tumblr is really easy to figure out, discussions work via reblogs. You should give it a try, the Monster fandom there is the most active Monster fandom in the internet. When you join, start following these monster-centric blogs listed here http://obluda.wikia.com/wiki/Fan_Section or http://fuckyeahjohanliebert.tumblr.com/otherblogs. Also, keep track of the "Naoki urasawa" and "Naoki Urasawa's Monster" tags. There are also personal tumblrs that reblog many monster related things like http://johan-rapper.tumblr.com/ and http://cloverinblue.tumblr.com/. My tumblr is http://abeiramar.tumblr.com/ |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 506 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 68148247 06-02-2013 01:50 PM I have tried to sort through them, but I can't form a coherent discussion while leaping through all the pages and trying to sort through all the posts to find the one that's replying to the one I just read, assuming I ever find it at all. It's like if everyone's posts here could only be accessed through their trackers and their trackers showed nothing but kudos received. I figured it was just me and my 20th century mind, but I've talked to some other Monster fans who have the same problem when I suggested they have a look at the fandom on Tumblr. It's just not my style of forum I guess. ::sigh:: |
| abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 507 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 68148267 06-02-2013 02:05 PM Yeah, I can see how it can be confusing. This recent discussion for example: http://themagnificentsolfi.tumblr.com/post/51608690911/you-were-there-yesterday-how-did-i-miss-you You have to scroll down and click on people's replies (there are two repplies and a bunch of likes&reblogs). To find out who's answering who, well it's hard to explain but check out this discussion about Eva: http://cloverinblue.tumblr.com/post/31800929517/the-blog-of-no-return-awonderfulname-what-if-eva, the citations are ordered chronogically and the most recent reply is at the bottom. They generally reply to the citations that are on top. |
TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 508 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to FrankStein - Message ID#: 67792253 06-02-2013 10:17 PM Hello! Just want to pop in to tell you all that I'm not dead. :D I'm very sorry for not posting here. I'm so addicted to tumblr it's not even funny. Plus, I've had some personal problems going on in my life, including the loss of my grandmother back in February. And well...I wish I had more to say that is Another Monster related, but I don't. Still, I see there are some nice posts here. My favorite: FrankStein wrote: Writing about poppe made me feel dirty, so here's something more positive. ^_^ I want to introduce you all the true hero of Monster. While there were many, many people who did the right thing, the Hero of our story is just a single man who is not paid respect he deserves to. Without this man, the whirlwind that almost consumed all, would not have been stopped. This is the man who slayed the dragon. Everyone, meet Herbet Knaup, 38 years old, unemployed. He likes to drink to an extent, that many would call him alcoholic. He is ridiculed by the townfolk. He beats his son, and steals money from him to buy alcohol. He is given an pistol by agents of Johan, but he does not use it in any way even though he does not lack opportunities. Drunken he shuffles trough nightmarelike Ruhenheim until, he sees Johan threaten Wim, Herbert's son, with a gun. He reacts immediately to protect his son, so doing wounds Johan in the head. What follows is very important. Here Tenma is, sitting next to Nina. His long journey finally come to pass, and he did not have to kill Johan after all! He's so tired but all is finally well; And all is well - except Wim loves his father very much, no matter how bad a father he is. And Wims father is not a murderer. As police are taking Herbert to be arrested Wim yells so "Daddys...Daddy's not a murderer"! Tenma is right next to him, and after some very short convincing from Nina Tenma decides to operate on Johan once again. Thus not only trough Herbert Knaups actions is Johan stopped, Tenma is offered a kind of personal redemption in saving a life, saving man from killing a person and personally forgiving Johan. I give you applaudes mr Knaup! Now get sobered up, get a job and start providing for your son. Also apologize for him, else you feel the back of my hand. ^_^ -- Edit. Fixed some sentence structure. |
| abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 509 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 68152069 06-03-2013 01:58 PM As expected I got Another Monster in the mail today. It's a nice small, thick book with a dust cover. The literature pages are yellow-ish and in the end we have the story "The Awakening Monster" in glossy paper with colors. The only downside is that the embossed "silver" in the dust cover is a bit scratched, it's a brand new book but it looks like they gave me an used copy ::indifferent:: . Fortunately, the pages are absolutely intact. I took a glimpse at Tenma's chapter and so far it sounds exactly like Stephen's translation. The book is a really nice addition to any Monster collection. I will post photos soon. |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 510 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 68154563 06-04-2013 08:32 PM The posts in the links were interesting, but it's just too much work. I have a hard enough time keeping up when they're all in one place like here! :) The Italian edition sounds just like the Japanese - is the dust cover satiny smooth too? A part of me is dreading to find out just how bad my translation is. ^.^ '' But if fixing a translation error could clear up some of the mysteries, I'll cope! @Toph I knew you were still out there, posting away on Tumblr. I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother though. :( But drop in any time, when things get better and/or you have stuff to say! :D |
JohansBonbon Posts: 1 Registered: 06-21-2013 Message 511 of 529 |
About Fritz Verdemann's name Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-21-2013 10:21 AM Since it's ヴァーデマン (va-deman) and he is German, shouldn't his name be spelled Werdemann (w prounounced as /v/)? If it's Verdemann then it would be pronounced with an /f/ like Ferdemann, which is clearly not the equivalent of ヴァーデマン . However, no Monster medium has used Werdemann. All I've seen was Verdemann, Vardemann (in German fan subs), Verdeman, Vardeman, and Wademann (German manga). ::embarassed:: |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 512 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohansBonbon - Message ID#: 68276899 06-22-2013 02:29 AM That's an interesting point. Werner Weber is spelled with the same ヴ character. What's most interesting to me is that the German fansubs spelled it with a V. I keep rolling it around in my head trying to figure out why they would do that, but nothing clicks. Even if they were translating from the English fansubs (while the manga would be going off the Japanese), they would be able to hear the "Verdeman" (or Bardeman from some speakers) and know it should be a W. This seems similar to the controversy over Schuwald vs Schubert, I think. I also ran into the same questions with Sebe vs Šébe (as apparently did Urasawa, as well as Faroubek vs Paroubek). :) I guess you never know how something's going to end up after going through several layers of language and pronunciation and alphabets, especially when it comes to names. I've also never quite understood why Čapek isn't romanized as Czapek, since the Czech Republic (Česká republika) uses the Č character. But I guess the real question is why we use the Polish "Cz" instead of Ch in the first place. From that viewpoint, it makes sense not to extend that quirk beyond the country name. :) And welcome to the thread!! :D |
| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 513 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 09-24-2013 09:08 PM Hello world! I have a couple of new ideas about AM now! And I came up with them in the weirdest way too. Basically I thought of a scenario where Taichi Keaton from Master Keaton was teaming up Tenma to find Weber. I wondered what Keaton would think of AM, so I guess I thought like him for a bit. ^_^U First of all, I think it's possible that the drawing at the end is a red herring. Fritz Weindler/Hermann Fuhr might have the ability to closely mimic other artists' styles. If he can mimic Bonaparta's drawings, why couldn't he produce a sketch that looks like Weber's? Now as to why he drew Johan...well, it was probably to throw investigators off or mess with their heads. Also, Gina mentioned that the sketch looked a little off, and perhaps that could be attributed to Fuhr drawing Johan from memory, or perhaps that was to show that his mimicry is very close, but not perfect. And here's another idea that could tie into the "Fuhr is Jodaddy" theory: Johan's real name is that of his father's. It would make sense for Jomama to name her son after the man she loved, wouldn't it? It could also explain the "His name is the same as mine!" line in The Awakening Monster. This would mean that Fuhr wrote the book to reflect how he is now carrying Johan's "monster." But eh this could be nonsense. And stretching it. <_<;; |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 514 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 68946605 09-26-2013 09:35 PM Hey stranger! :D If I understand what you're saying, I can't countenance that theory since it would mean that Johan's true name is likely Fritz. Or maybe Fritz is an alias, in which case, I can consider it. ;) I don't think the drawing is a red herring. I think Weber drew it. It would take quite a bit of evidence to convince me otherwise. I'm reluctantly beginning to think that Wiendler might well be Johan's father, a theory which works nicely with so many points, but also flies in the face of rationality on several others. Sometimes I wonder whether Urasawa himself knows. :) I still think Johan's cousin is out there though (or if you're right, 3/4 brother?), to be the new hope of the neo-Nazis. I just think Weindler is too old to be the titular monster, and who else besides the disgraced Sievernich is left to fill that position? I do like the crossover of Keaton and Tenma though. Let the mass composition of Master Monster fiction commence! |
| TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 515 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 68959723 10-01-2013 06:28 PM Yeah, I was going with Fritz being an alias. :P Urasawa is a class-A troll. This is fact. I'd write some but I really don't have the enthusiasm to write anything more than one-shots. But I do have a few ideas: Keaton comes across Weber's case and was either specially requested for it or Weber happened to have insurance through Lloyd's. Keaton has a hunch that Tenma, being the only one other than Nina who wasn't interviewed, might have a key. So he hunts down Tenma and it turns out that Tenma does know something that could help but he didn't realize at the time he got his letter from Weber in the MSF. Either that, or Tenma helps Keaton out by comparing Weindler/Fuhr to Johan to try to figure out his MO more clearly. ...And they eventually come across the big conspiracy surrounding Russia and the revival of the book readings. ...I have nothing after that. ^_^U Here is what I have written if you wanna check it out though. All Monster except for a very recent Korra fic: http://toongal.tumblr.com/tagged/fanfiction |
Lunarmie Posts: 6 Registered: 08-18-2014 Message 516 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 09-09-2014 10:44 AM Hi, everybody!)) Happy to join your conversation here!)) I finished reading AM about two months ago, but I managed to come up to a conclusion only a few days ago, and I was, actually, really amazed by it x) So, what do I think about all that mysterious novel: IT REVEALS TWINS' REAL NAMES. Yeah, I know, it sounds a kind of crazy, but I have almost lost my sleep thinking about it x)) Everything began when I was finished with AM and I was almost sure that Hermann/Fritz was fantastically survived Jodaddy. The only reason, why I couldn't be sure of it for certain, is the lack of official information, confirming my guess-work. But, still, there were some things, that I couldn't understand: why did the athour decided to write the whole novel in addition to the main story and still left the most interesting things, like the twins' real names, untold??? And of course I was extremely dissapointed, coz he didn't allow Anna to say at least one little word Т^Т, when she was the only one who could know where the h*** did Johan go! >.< т_т On the other hand, at least, it was obvious, that Viera would name her children after her own twin(Anna) and her beloved(Jodaddy) And then... all of a sudden... while I was thinking about the girl Bonaparta was in love with, and who later became the second wife of Terner Poppe... a girl, who loved him so much that she was ready to make a family with him despite the fact that "he was older than her enough to be her father", I was just like 'STOP'... could it mean, that she would name her son after her beloved, too!? О__О Coz she loved Terner sooooo muuuuuch??? And then, if Jodaddy's name was really Terner Poppe, then it would mean, that Johan's real name was Terner Poppe, too! I just can't think about anything else but it!!! ** If to speak about Nina's real name, I've got two variants: Anna Poppe or Anna Cerna (it is still not clear to me) Sooo... that's what I wanted to say. Just thinking *and maybe thinking too much х)* |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 517 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Lunarmie - Message ID#: 70764723 09-10-2014 01:22 AM OMG, a new person! :D I'm too sleepy to give a proper response tonight, but I'll try tomorrow. Welcome! |
| Lunarmie Posts: 6 Registered: 08-18-2014 Message 518 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 70767263 09-10-2014 09:26 AM Ahaha, that's alright)) Thanks for welcoming ^__^ |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 519 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Lunarmie - Message ID#: 70767871 09-11-2014 08:39 PM There was a brief discussion of possible names a couple of pages back (dunno if you've read the whole thread or not), and it was suggested that Johan's name might be Fritz, which I couldn't accept just because. :D As much as I like Terner as a name, I still can't see it applied to Johan. Doesn't fit in my brain-ears. But there's one thing you're missing in your analysis, and that is that the girl Terner and Franz were both in love with (Jodaddy's mother) didn't marry either of them, she married the boy in the village down the road. If I remember correctly, the timeline here is a bit murky, so I'm not sure if she ran off with Terner for a bit and then married the boy, or if she married the boy and then ran off with Terner. I think it was the first though. Given all the scandal around her at the time she got married (I got the distinct impression she was already pregnant which was why the marriage happened so quickly), as ballsy as she showed herself to be in coming to Bonaparta to ask for a favor for her son, I'm not convinced she would have had the audacity to do so if her son bore Franz's father's name. :) But if Johan is named after Jodaddy and Jodaddy was named after his father (i.e., his mother's legal husband), then Fritz Verdemann's father knew that name. Maybe Fritz can find it written in his father's papers, or find it in a census somewhere. :D But we'll never see it! On the issue of "why did he write this without answering all these questions," I can only say I share your frustration! :D But for me there were enough neat revelations and answers to questions I've long had (like the 42/46 thing and the cheery sweater guy) that I'm grateful for those at least! And I kind of see why he didn't concretely answer the question of whether Johan woke up or not. It's kind of like people arguing over whether Spike died in Cowboy Bebop even now. For some people one answer ruins it for them, for others, the opposite answer ruins it. By not saying one way or another, everybody can be happy. |
| Lunarmie Posts: 6 Registered: 08-18-2014 Message 520 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 70773647 10-02-2014 12:56 PM Dear Gina, sorry for not replying to you for so long! I was just to stupid to start reading the previous comments here, as I thought it would ease the dicussion for you, as I would be able to avoid bringing up some topics that had been alredy brought up before, but it appeard to be so many of the comments here, that I've just gave up *shame-shame-shaaame* I'll try my best to finish reading them later... reading them takes so much time(the reason is that I'm not a native speaker of English ^^") You're right, I'd really forgotten about her marriage to that nameless guy, so I had to reread a half of the novel, too x) That's why my idea really just doesn't add up, but I was so happy to believe that it was possible to find out Johan's real name, oooh))) One of the reasons why I head to reread a lot of chapters of the book is the idea(from here) that Anna/Viera's twin could be alive, that guess was too interesting to me to ignore x)) I was just sure that there actually ARE all the answers we want to know and that they are just thoroughly hidden in the plot... There are just too many unrevealed secrets, you know, that's why sometimes I think that Urasawa couldn't give the answers to some questions himself x) I was quiet surprised when Reichwein said tha Johan tried to live normal life after the fire in the library :D Because dressing up like your dear sister isn't tipycal for a normal... boy o_O xDD But, assuming what Reichwein said, it could be a little intimation that Johan would be able to... find some strenth to continue on living, despite everything he had done, I don't know) |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 521 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Lunarmie - Message ID#: 70856031 10-02-2014 06:41 PM Yay, I didn't scare you off! :D Lunarmie wrote: One of the reasons why I head to reread a lot of chapters of the book is the idea(from here) that Anna/Viera's twin could be alive, that guess was too interesting to me to ignore x)) Did you reach any conclusions after doing so? I came here to post a little tidbit I ran across today that might be relevant to your naming quest. Whether all four interviewees were talking about one person or not, I think we can safely say that the twins' mother was a geneticist at Brno where Gregor Mendel did his experiments. Did you know Mendel's birth name was Johann? ;D Make what you will of that... I sympathize with trying to make sense of the discussion in English - it's hard enough for us native speakers to follow! Rest assured though, you write as well as or better than many posters around here. :) |
| Lunarmie Posts: 6 Registered: 08-18-2014 Message 522 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 70857313 10-05-2014 12:38 PM )) Oh, no, it's all my fault! >.<" Sorry one more time ^^''' Well, I was looking through the text in order to find something important, which I could have missed before, related to Viera's twin, I mean, but it didn't seem to be anything like that there. I was also driven by the fact that Johan and Anna were able to speak with each other using their thelepathy abilities(when they were kids, at least), which could explain why did Viera had that strange feeling that Anna was alive. It's not sagnificant, though) Yeah, I know that! :D Who knows, maybe Naoki Urasawa is just obsessed with this name and everything it's connected with xD Oh, thank you! *^^* You calmed me down a little bit :) |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 523 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Lunarmie - Message ID#: 70872757 10-05-2014 02:28 PM I still feel bad that my original mis-translation about the twin girls and Bonaparta sent the discussion down a blind alley. :( At least we got that part straightened out, I think. I just wish Urasawa hadn't made Weber keep his thoughts about those 4 interviews to himself! Weber was always happy to share his musings about everything else! |
| Lunarmie Posts: 6 Registered: 08-18-2014 Message 524 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 70873143 10-06-2014 06:01 PM Oh, come on, you've done such a great job! :) Whatever it was, it is much more important that you've managed to get the main idea and make it be clear to others :) ... but he simply prefered to leave it up to us to speculate on x) Still, there was one thing Weber couldn't get to know about - the dilemma of Viera's choice between the twins. I mean... for example, he had no reason to pay much attention to her trauma and make a comment about it, because he didn't know what was the most terrifying thing it led her to, which gave a birth to a monster later. And the fact that she had to live with a trauma like that is actually so grievous :( Just like the Johan's one( |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 525 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Lunarmie - Message ID#: 70872757 10-06-2014 07:55 PM No, I didn't expect him to answer Johan's question of whether she knew which twin she chose. :) But I think the answer is that she did, and she intended for Johan to become the monster that would deliver her retribution against Bonaparta and those involved. She probably didn't think little Anna could do it as effectively. Or maybe she had hope that Anna could save Johan after his task was done. When she was pregnant, she was already imagining both of them taking revenge for her once they were born. Kind of makes you wonder how she raised them during the time they were in hiding, what sorts of stories she told them. Earlier we were trying to figure out when and from whom Johan got the Nameless Monster book he was reading while Anna was at the RRM. Iirc, we were thinking there's no way Jomama would let them read anything of Bonaparta's, but on second thought, I'm not so sure. Maybe she did give it to them, to warp their little minds, but in the direction of her revenge, rather than toward being soldiers for or leaders of the state as Bonaparta intended. It would also explain how Nina knew the ending to The God of Peace and recognized the other books that Lipsky had. It certainly is a less supernatural explanation than her picking it up from Johan telepathically (though I believe Ms. Tietze's story that suggests twins telepathy). :) We saw with Chapek's program in the Turkish quarter that the books could mess you up in general, and the kids had Chapek guiding that destruction of self. So is it possible that Anna could supplement the book with a different kind of lessons that would aim them toward her enemies? Do you think she would do that? I think she might... >.> |
| Lunarmie Posts: 6 Registered: 08-18-2014 Message 526 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 70879027 10-09-2014 05:31 PM I think I should admit here that I have no idea what was the main purpose of that experiment at all :D Seriously. What did they want from those little children? The only way Nina was different from others is that she didn't scream in horror, while being imprisoned in that space of black. I don't really think her ability to keep silent (by some miracle o_O) in such stressful situation mattered to those people that much x) And this was the very reason why I thought it was she who was 'the real monster' after watching the series for the first time. It was so heartlessly for her to set up an innocent child as some kind of a regular tool to fulfill her desire for revenge! The whole thing was just so inhuman... Just what kind of mother would give up her own child, particularly because of the matter like that?.. Even if she did believe that Nina was able to save Johan, her belief had no sense, because she had already destroyed his future of a normal humanbeing by setting him on a path of a psycho mass murderer herself. Hm, yeah, that's also a question x) Somehow I have always thought that Johan and Nina had been attending those seminars or that they had been read the tales by Bonaparta before Viera managed to escape/run away with them... And as for the book itself, well, it could still be Bonaparta who left it to Johan, or that's impossible? What is more, I can't really see any reason for Viera to ban those tales at all x) No doubt she would do anything to accomplish her goal =D Well, at least, she had to be very good at psychology, too, to be able to succeed in doing something like that with those books, didn't she? :) |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 527 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to Lunarmie - Message ID#: 70893487 10-14-2014 07:34 PM I think the goal of the sensory deprivation room was to either break her down completely so they could program her as they chose, or to see if she could withstand it and prove that she was the child they were waiting for. Maybe both? They hoped she would prove strong enough to withstand it but be a bit more malleable towards their ends? I take it you're talking about Jomama in your second paragraph? I don't think she really had a choice about giving Bonaparta one of the twins. Sophie's Choice and all. But while she didn't behave quite like a normal mother would, you have to remember she's been through a lot too. So while she may have made some questionable choices, I don't necessarily see her as a monster. Even if she was using them for her revenge (and that's just speculation), she did still love them and suffered a great deal trying to keep them out of Bonaparta's hands (just the escape attempt while she was in labor was pretty amazing). I think she would ban the books because she knew who wrote them and that meant they contained more than meets the eye. Unless she used them in her own way. :) Who knows which? As for where the book came from, I think I'm going to send you back a few pages to reread the discussion. I think we covered all the possibilities, but I'm not sure we ever reached a consensus. :D No, it's not impossible that Bonaparta gave Obluda to the twins before or after the RRM, but I personally have my doubts about that (although if you do go read those posts, I think I agreed with it at one point!) because if he visited them before he came to take a twin, Jomama would have fled with them again, and if he were going to give it to them after the massacre he could have just taken Nina back to the Three Frogs himself. If he dropped it off when he left Johan behind, I feel like we would have been shown that. Plus I think he already had his hands full at that time. ;) So my feeling at this point in time is that either Jomama bought it innocently or with her own intent for the kids, or possibly at Johan's request if he saw it in a store. Oooh, maybe they checked it out from the library and never returned it! That's what started them down the wrong path! ;) |
reallycoolusername Posts: 1 Registered: 11-04-2014 Message 528 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to JohnJacobSchmidt - Message ID#: 63071837 08-23-2012 10:40 AM I'm sure none of you will ever be here again; however, I have to thank you for referencing this very interesting Australian short story. I read it online, despite how difficult it was to find (I don't believe it's in print now or ever was), and strangely, the title which you said was Pretty Noel turned out to be some variation of Pretty Dick or Pretty Dicky. Either way, great read, and I completely see the connections you made with this and Another Monster- seems nihilistic (like a certain fictional children's story). |
| GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 529 of 529 |
Re: Another Monster Reply to reallycoolusername - Message ID#: 71006775 11-05-2014 08:42 PM I'm still here. :) The story was pretty easy to find online, if you had the right name. The problem was that at that time "Dick" was filtered, and it being Christmastime, the filter was **noel**. :-D So no wonder you had a hard time finding it with only that to go on! I can't say I see much connection to The Awakening Monster, other than the bleak tone of it. But I'm fighting off a cold, so my brains aren't working very well at the moment. Welcome to the boards! :) |
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Erich, this looks fantastic! I know how hard you worked to make it happen, so you have my heartfelt thanks! I kinda wish I could take back a post or two, but hey, 'tis for posterity. ;D Good work!
Hi everyone!
I'm not sure whether this site is currently active or not yet let me post my impression while reading Another Monster (Big applause for Stephen and Gina for their magnificent work).
Well, reading AM made me feel sorry for everyone involved as the victims of this cruel experiment done by Bonaparta especially Johan (of course). He born from lie, have guilt survivor for whatever happened on Nina on Red Rose mansion, have no family and the real family he had rejected him. It must be hurt.
I don't know if it was only me who crying while reading AM. It just horrible human can be! To make children born unto this world without good purpose but evil. The children never asked to be born so why didn't they treat these children kindly?
Sorry for broken english.
Hi Chan Rin!
You've probably given up on getting a reply, but better way late than never, I guess. People tell me they'll drop by to comment, but you're the first who's done so, so far.
I have to disagree a little about Johan being "born from a lie." My impression was that his parents actually did fall in love, which turned out to be the downfall of the whole program. By which I mean, if Jomama hadn't been so bent on escape and revenge, the twins wouldn't have been raised to accomplish that, and Johan wouldn't have done all he did to end Bonaparta.
Of course, it might all be starting up again... :evil laugh:
I also wanted to give a shoutout to the article on the LJ site about all the booze in Monster. That was awesome! :D
http://erich-springer.livejournal.com/61738.html
Hi there, I was wondering is there anywhere else I could read a full copy of Another Monster? I know there are a couple of links, one of which leads to Scribd and the other to a PDF. However, I'm pretty disappointed with Scribd as it requires me to have a credit card (which I can't afford) and as you can imagine, not having a credit card means I'm also unable to simply purchase a copy from online bookstores... Does anyone else have any suggestions?
Please, contact me via email: kinderheim0511@gmail.com
or send me a private message in case you have a vk (https://vk.com/id56318824), or tumblr (http://erichspringer.tumblr.com) account and I'll be glad to provide you with the copy.
Hi Anonymous,
If you haven't already found me on Erich's site or gotten the pdf, just shoot me an email at ginaszamboti@aol.com (the m is not a typo :) )
Hello? Is anyone here?
Knock, knock... Hmm...
Hi Skye! I'm here, sometimes. Did you have a question or comment about the series or book? :)
Hi, Gina! Thanks again for translating AM! Sorry I didn't visit the forum sooner, but I had to at least go through the entire thread once. For courtesy's sake.
You'll be glad to know I survived!;)
Anyway, I just didn't want anyone to go through all that trouble and end up not having people to discuss it with. But I can see there is practically no traffic on this forum now. And I can totally understand if nobody has any energy left to debate this stuff.
So? Are you still up for this? Be warned, I've done my homework and I have lengthy thoughts.
If not, I'll understand. I'm using my theories to perfect that fanfic, so once I'm done with that, I'll post a link here. That's one way you'll know your efforts are appreciated, anyway!
Shout-out to all you guys who asked to read and disappeared!
Haha! ;)
I'm absolutely up for hearing your lengthy thoughts! As long as you don't try to tell me Johan never existed. I'm so not on board for that theory. :)
Looking forward to it!
T_T "Johan never existed"... Saddest three words I've ever heard...
So since I'm working out HOW to write, I'll start off by saying this:
Urasawa wrote Another Monster using the "mirror" method. Just as Monster had three main characters (Tenma, Nina, Johan) and two red herrings (Red Rose Mansion, Kinderheim 511)... AM has THREE monsters and two red herrings.
Red Herring 1: Viera Cerna's twin
She is thrown in to throw people off. Especially to create a “cousin” theory.
Red Herring 2: Jodaddy aka Hermann Führ /Fritz Weindler
To create the theory that he is the titular monster, but he isn’t.
Now hold on, because here is where I start branching off into what may possibly be delusions… I will elaborate on this below, so see if I make any sense here, because I did go through ALL the posts in this thread and I formed this through some amount of confounded thought…
So far, I’ve established the theory that Hermann Fuhr/Fritz Weindler is Jodaddy.
Before you shoot me down, let me finish presenting my case. ;) If my theory that is correct… Fritz Weindler is the real name of Jodaddy, was also the name of Jodaddy’s father (Stefan Verdemann named his son after his friend Fritz Weindler Sr. aka the next-town neighbour) and is the boy who told the story of the Sleeping Monster in Bonaparta’s reading circles (and published it under his service name Hermann Fuhr).
For clarity:
- Stefan Verdemann ---> Fritz Verdemann (named after father’s friend, the next-town neighbour)
- Next-town neighbour (Fritz Weindler Sr.) ----> Fritz Weindler (Jodaddy)
Still with me?
Now, I know this theory has many holes, but I will now explain Red Herring 2…
I propose that Weindler/Jodaddy IS NOT the titular monster. Lunge’s sentence: “That man is a monster.”
"A" monster.
Not "the monster you’re looking for". Not "the other monster".
Also note the title of the movie that Weber observed as the revelation to Weindler’s ‘92 fake death – The Third Man. I could be overly paranoid, but these might be Urasawa’s clues that there are more than two players here – Johan, Weindler aka Jodaddy, and another (the true second monster who is using the names Hermann Fuhr and Fritz Weindler as aliases).
Take your time on that. I get alerts when you reply.
The reason I'm coming up with crazy theories is because I feel the Wiki fandom is looking weird. Does it bother you as much as it does to me? If I'm going to try anything, I feel like I would want some confirmation from our fellow fans at least... It's about as close as it'll ever get to calling Urasawa himself! :\
PS I think I have a full timeline sorted out. From Terner Poppe's birth to Johan's headshot in Ruhenheim. I don't know if it's any different from yours but I'll post that up soon.
I don't know what you mean about the wiki, since I don't really follow it. But on a cursory view of your theories, I like how you think so far. :)
Before I comment much further, I need to re-immerse myself in the story - I've been away from it too long. Hell, I've forgotten half of my own theories! ;)
So I *am* reading your posts, but it will take me a bit to formulate a coherent response to them. Hope that's ok. Maybe other people will jump in if they see some activity here.
I'll just leave it here -- http://erich-springer.livejournal.com/81206.html
Okay, the second monster theory continued:
- The man who helped Kottman evade the authorities was Jodaddy.
- The man who appeared at the clinic before Kottman’s murders was Jodaddy, after he killed Molke.
- The man who commissioned Kottman to kill at the clinic was the fake Weindler, the second monster.
Weber thought the men in the above three events were the same individual, but as I reckon Weber is the new Lunge... I think Jodaddy is the new Tenma.
This is why the true Weindler (Jodaddy) repeated Kottman’s name…
- Weber: "Is there a connection between you and the "Demon Axe-Murderer" Gustav Kottmann?"
- Weindler: "Kottmann?"
- Weber: "Yes, Kottmann."
… and had that ellipsis thing going on in the final phone call with Weber. Jodaddy was helping Kottman for a year because Kottman was from either one of the Kinderheims or the reading circles, see “While reading his letters, I realized he was one of ours”.
First off, Jodaddy didn’t think Weber would connect Kottman to him; and second, (for some reason) he didn’t think Kottman was connected to the second monster. He bought the cops’ theory that Kottman just went stark crazy because of Dorn.
I believe this is a clue that Jodaddy has a bit of an egoistic saviour complex. Fan letters? There was some pride going on there and him seeking out Kottman because of this, is very telling (also why he wrote Dorn in the first place! I have more on this later but that’s for another post…).
And so this strange disconnect in behaviour marks him as the red herring – he was reminded of the threat that still lurks, after forgetting it momentarily… :D
So, after getting Jodaddy out of the way as a red herring, I think Urasawa would've preferred to have someone else be the second monster.
So yes, I believe Kiener and Sievernich are the guys who bought up Helmuth Voss’s sketches under Werner Weber’s name, as well as ordered the thousand copies of the Sleeping Monster for some reading seminar, but I don’t think they’re the ones behind the masterplan…
Kiener is the follower, the worshipper – the new Capek. Sievernich is… well, still Sievernich. For all he’s learnt from Johan and all his ambition, he lacks that one natural-born trait that Johan has. Dominance. So who is the new Bonaparta?
Unfortunately, Urasawa being Urasawa, he's most likely an unnamed character we've never and will never see.
The silent phone call I agree (with someone, I can’t remember who) that it is Johan on the other end, answering Hermann Fuhr’s phone, except he thinks it’s Fritz Weindler’s phone. If it was the other monster, he would not be puzzled to hear Weber asking for Fuhr. And I prefer to think Johan was actively searching for Weindler in December 2001…
The sketch at the end is Johan, drawn by Fuhr.
Compare the two end sketches for AM and The Awakening Monster. Those rough, curved lines say it all. All the other drawings in TAM were sketched, cleaned and coloured. Only the final drawing was not. In fact, it looked like it had been sketched on the spot in a hurry. And if so, the sketch resembling Johan could be a drawing Fuhr did right after finishing the monster’s. And it’s either a message to Johan who's awakened (my preference) or a tribute to Johan, a “Johan lives on” type of thing.
This one might be a little more out there…
Dorn in the Darkness, I believe, is written by Jodaddy as a form of reaching out to his son who was messed up by all the Bonaparta business.
I think Jodaddy would have been following Johan’s activities since either Kinderheim 511 or the Lieberts’ murders (the two highest profile events in Johan’s younger life), but that he was too busy to intervene in his son’s life because he was trying to hide out from the people who were after him at the time until ’92 where he faked his death. I was surprised no one gave any further thought to this (probably because the Jodaddy theory is pretty much full of holes?), that Dorn in the Darkness was essentially the story of Johan.
Johan is Dorn – he sells his soul to an evil sorcerer (Bonaparta), gains dark powers (of mind rape??), his actions are influenced by the BOOKS he reads, and he becomes a killer, who must constantly battle the evil influence around him and in his heart. In the fifth instalment, Weindler writes that Dorn is about to fall to evil until he meets a magician, who will become his friend. Weindler aka Jodaddy’s message and his hope is that he (through Dorn in the Darkness) is Johan’s magician, but in my view, Tenma is the one who truly becomes this guiding light and offers Johan salvation (by saving his life a second time).
And since the Sleeping Monster was published in early ’98, before the events of Ruhenheim, I believe Jodaddy published it as a foreboding of Johan’s impending final act.
This is why – on pg. 151, see "He said he had written other things before then, but it seemed like he didn't want to talk about it, so I didn't press the issue." – Hermann Fuhr aka Jodaddy was reluctant to talk about his past work (not just for obvious reasons but also because Dorn was written for Johan).
It’s weird though. To me, the Sleeping Monster seems to foretell both Kinderheim 511 and Ruhenheim before they happen… Oh wait, no. It isn’t weird. Isn’t the Sleeping Monster like a retelling of the events of Zweifelstadt? Did the boy from the reading circles know that Bonaparta was the student who visited Zweifelstadt in ’58??
And later, he planned to publish the Awakening Monster - also for Johan.
You'll have guessed by now I'm really into the whole father/son thing... :)
A little something about Jomamma (though I expect I'm wrong):
Viera Cerna (Jomamma) is the alias Bonaparta gave her after brainwashing her.
Bonaparta told her her real name is Anna (but a person’s real name doesn’t have to be their birth name, it could be the name that most aptly suits her – which, after everything we’ve seen in Monster, Anna is DEFINITELY her best name).
Anna is the name of the dead twin. Maruska is the birth name of Viera Cerna.
Jomamma told Jana Kubelkova that her name was Maruska and not Anna because she didn’t want Bonaparta to kill Kubelkova too (she could’ve remembered her birth name after escaping, and he DID kill everyone who called her Anna).
And FINALLY! The timeline I promised. I went through AM SIX times and considered the manga facts, etc. to work this out. Peruse at your own pace!
1900s – Terner Poppe is born
1930s – Klaus Poppe is born
May 1945 – Germany freed from Nazi rule, Terner Poppe at 45... “He was a hero who fought with us in the resistance. He was about 45 then...”
1948 – Terner Poppe works in the shadows of the Communist coup
1950 – Klaus Poppe at 18 or 20 leaves Liberec, Terner Poppe becomes a recluse at 50 after affair
1951 – William Bargeld leaves East Germany
Jan 1958 – Yokohama, Tenma is born
1958 – Zweifelstadt, Bonaparta is 26 or 28? University student, 3 degrees... Same year Bargeld got on board production for Superman Steiner, to test Bonaparta’s method... on kids.t
1959-1961 – Superman Steiner airs in America
1961-1963 – Magnificent Steiner airs in France and West Germany*
1960s – Bonaparta’s rise
1962 – Bonaparta begins Kinderheim project, having driven Terner Poppe mad and gotten results from Bargeld’s test (seen from *broadcasts, not Bargeld himself)
1964 – Bargeld returns to East Germany
1965-ish? – Terner Poppe dies at 65, a broken mind
1970s – Bonaparta at the top
1974 – Anna stayed at Kavanova’s boarding house while studying, met Fuhr/Weindler
1975-1977 – Bonaparta’s eugenics and brainwashing experiment
May 1975 – Johan and Nina are born
1977 – Viera escapes
1981 – The Red Rose Mansion massacre
1984-1986 – Kinderheim 511
April 1986 – The Liebert murders
1991 – The Underground Bank
1995 – Junkers shooting
May 1995 – Heidelberg, Fortner murders
1996 – Turkish quarter fires
1997 – Johan encounters The Nameless Monster, Munich University Library fire
Nov 1998 – Ruhenheim
And that's... 1,2... 8 full posts of theories. Well, I hope you're not sick of me yet! XD
I'll see you when I see you! Peace!
This really was a very interesting read... A perfect spin-off that expands the world of Monster into an entirely new dimension!
Because while the main series already had quite the realistic, immersive atmosphere, I have to say that Another Monster blurs the line between fact and fiction to a whole new level! I literally paused the book in some places and looked up some of the stuff that was mentioned (I actually thought Dorn in the Darkness was a real book), only to find out that Urasawa made it all up from scratch! Coming up with multiple stories within the world of the overall story, and even adding in details like the publishing companies and interviews with the production staff... Urasawa-sensei blows my mind sometimes!!
Honestly, all throughout the course of this series, I'm constantly amazed at Urasawa's brilliant ability to replicate the human society within his works, in such a way that just feels *so real*. He doesn't simply create a web of characters; he creates a *society* of *people*.
Whoo-hoo! Somebody else posted something!
For those of you who also like how "real" Urasawa's work is, please click on the link left by Erich Springer above! There are photos and maps of the "actual" locations featured in both the Monster manga and anime! Places like Kinderheim 511, Klaus Poppe's house, landmarks and so much more!
Enjoy!
Whoo-hoo! Somebody else posted something!
For those of you who also like how "real" Urasawa's work is, please click on the link left by Erich Springer above! There are photos and maps of the "actual" locations featured in both the Monster manga and anime! Places like Kinderheim 511, Klaus Poppe's house, landmarks and so much more!
Enjoy!
I just finished reading AM and then some pages of this thread. Will we ever get any confirmation? Can someone make a family tree or something? Along with their aliases and other names. I want to know the relationships between each character. Especially Jomama and Jodaddy
Big thanks to Gina and Stephen (and anyone else who helped) for their translations.
The main thing I wanted to talk about was the theory that Führ/Weindler is Jodaddy. (Yes, I buy into this too lol. I've seen a decent bit of shounens where mysterious characters at first end up being fathers of protagonists, so I may be biased and want to see this happen haha).
We don't really know details about Jodaddy's supposed death, which gives me the thought that it could possibly have been faked.
Führ is said to be in his forties by the Dorn in the Darkness publisher, which would be a possible age for Jodaddy at the time.
They are both described as being handsome, and Führ is described as muscular, as is common for a soldier. Jodaddy is from Czechoslovakia and was a soldier there, and Führ states that after the reading circles at the RRM he went to work for his country, the Czech Republic (presumably as a soldier). While on the phone with Weber, Führ also tells him that was the name he used "during missions on this side." These missions could refer to work done as a soldier.
Finally we're left with the most important, yet least clear-cut clue connecting the two—the final sketch. I think this sketch was left ambiguous looking on purpose to be interpreted differently by various readers, like many other things in Monster/AM. It bears great resemblance to Johan, but I think it looks a little off. The face is a little longer and more thin and the hair is wavy, yet as a whole they look similar as a father and son might be. Now there's the fact that the person in the sketch seems Johan's age, however since Jodaddy was handsome when young, he could have remained handsome and young looking when older. Also the sketch looks to be done in a hurry with the scribbles around the head (Weber probably had a very short time to do the sketch while his visitor was there—maybe he was trying draw it secretly). With this short amount of time he may not have been able to draw the facial details, such as wrinkles/creases to make him look older. Then there's also the fact that, as Gina mentioned, the thinner face could be Johan after his coma, which also caused the messy bed hair. So ultimateIy I think this point is debatable.
All in all connecting Jodaddy and Führ we have: possible age, supposed looks, country of origin and also working for their country, with clues that they both could have been soldiers, a connection to Bonaparte, and faking of a death (hehe). Also we have the fact that Führ looks like Johan, a father-son connection, if we believe the sketch is of Führ.
The theory that Führ is Johan's lost cousin is interesting, but I think the ages of the two are off. Führ was said to be in his forties, but Johan's cousin we would expect to be about Johan's age. The third man theory is cool too. I agree it was kind of weird that Führ seemed confused when Weber brought up Kottman, with him repeating "Kottman?". However I took the silence on the initial phone call as just Führ trying to not reveal himself, in case Weber would expose him to the police. Also with the title of the movie "The Third Man" I think that just refers to the man who faked his own death, so there was actually just two people. But I'm not exactly sure since I just read a quick plot summary of it (it's a real movie). It looked like it had some similarities with Monster/AM, so Urasawa may be a fan.
SkyeGRITTI, the name theory about Fritz is interesting. Just wanted to point out one thing: the next town neighbor had married Jodaddy's mom, but he may not have necessarily been the father of Jodaddy. If we believe the rumors of Terner Poppe, then he would be Jodaddy's father, and the next town neighbor may not have even known the son wasn't his.
One other thing that's unrelated: Gina mentioned people bought hundreds of AM copies in Spanish, which she read on some forums. I wonder if that was sort of a joke in the nature of Monster, like when someone bought a thousand copies of The Nameless Monster. Unless someone actually did buy them to recreate that scenario...
Actually nevermind what I said Gina about the cousin theory. I see now that you said you think Weindler is the father of the cousin.
Hi, figured i'd drop some of my thoughts here after reading AM and this thread.
Führ being Johan's Father feels like a stretch, since the former was built-up to be the "other monster" and one of the kids who visited Bonaparta's reading seminars and the latter was used by Bonaparta in the eugenics experiment, plus we don't know the exact time of Führ's graduation and running from Poppe. But it's an interesting idea, for sure.
The final sketch looks to me like a rushed drawing of Johan's face, though it's confusing because the one in the room next to Weber's was supposed to be Führ, perhaps it was more symbolic or to leave some mysteries concerning Johan(As if the ending of the original series wasn't enough).
A bit unrelated, but Lunge's chapter is probably my favorite, though Grimmer's Notebook was also some excellent stuff.
A few comments on the series in general. I'm going to cover Monster and Another Monster if you don't mind. These "few comments" are going to be long. I'm covering everything that makes me sad all at once.
I've read almost everything in this thread and I've never seen such an in depth discussion like this about a series. Probably because I don't look at discussion posts. Forgive me for speaking at length; I'll try to remain concise. Good work guys. This was a treat.
Monster covers a lot. It's most heavily about children, and what we do to them. If we give them love they probably won't turn out bad. But if they learn that they are nothing, unwanted, etc., they begin self destructing. And if we give them love after they've been hurt, they might be saved. It depends on the timing and the values and traits of the person.
Adults mess with children's heads, children mess with children's heads.
No matter what, children suffer at the hands of others. In my opinion adults are just children who found a pattern which might bring them what they want (if I act like xyz I will get abc. People give me x when I do y. And our personalities form based on what happens throughout our lives). So they are just suffering too. But we can remember the good things!
There are, in my opinion, underlying spiritual influences in the series. To some, the mention of such may seem like superstitious or lazy explanations amounting to "magic" but I don't mean in that way. Humans do have a way of transmitting energy into the things they create. Things about them can be sensed by their very air, whether by other humans or animals. We radiate something. With practice/intention these things may be masked but in general others can sense our respective energies (especially if they're queer enough). Klaus Pope's works were described by that editor guy as "brimming with malice." They were simply picture books for children but you could just tell something wasn't right with it.
So as far as spiritual influence goes, I'll put it this way: when your body gets cut, it's possible for bacteria or viruses to get in and infect you. With the right care, you won't become infected, fall ill, or possibly infect someone else. But sometimes even good care doesn't stop the damage that's happened if it's administered too late or if someone's immune system is just that weak. Similarly, mental wounds enable spirits, or "monsters" to enter, which bring certain thoughts with them (or you could equate these concepts to thoughts themselves. But what enables self-destructive thoughts? It's against the very nature of life itself which strives to survive and replicate itself. So where does self-destruction come from? There is no evolutionary advantage. It seems abnormal, like an affliction. There is no purpose/effect but to destroy the vessel and/or others in the process. And it transfers to others if it can, like a virus). Certain values and thoughts are then raised. The right foundation, self perception, and beliefs will allow a wounded person to heal properly or get through the attack. They are the antibodies that fight against these monsters. But sometimes the right environment can't save somebody either because of timing: how long was a concept was allowed to steep within someone's mind before the right concepts came along? And personality (substance): what little or much self-perception/values did they have in the first place?
I think maybe the underlying "monster" imagery from the series flows in that way. One person spreads the monster (virus, cycle) to another based on the choices they make, the words they use, etc.
*Johan analysis:*
I just watched Monster for the first time this summer, say a month ago. Reread it, then read Another Monster only two days ago. Through all of it, I wasn't angry at Johan, the main antagonist. Just waiting to understand what happened. They didn't spell it out so simply for us and Johan never explained himself. Part of my restraint to his character I can admit, is probably due to psychological factors such as 1) he's very pretty. When people are pretty you might feel less inclined to hate them as much as a person who is less attractive and does the same things. I know that sucks but it happens. Just to clarify, I don't romanticize him or feel any kind of way. It's sort of like always looking at him as a child, even though I know he's not anymore. 2) I kinda just wanted to learn why his dumb ass could be a murderer from so young. Like before 10. It's really abnormal for a kid to kill couples who took care of him and never hurt him, and be able to cover it up too. The unwillingness to deem children as pure evil from birth is a bias of mine. 3) he does certain things where you understand that even from that age he was self loathing. Though he carries himself with excellence and doesn't show what we would readily understand as weakness, you don't point to your forehead and tell your sister to shoot you. That was his first action as soon as he was found out. They were only around 10 or something right? (And she shot him too. I won't label her a monster for that since she was a child, but that's abnormal in my book. I know choices that kids make can be strangely logical and emotional though, i.e. "He took away something/someone I liked; I have the opportunity to punish/kill him for it; let me do that." Either way, he had serious qualms with what he was doing even from then.)
After he survived because of Dr Tenma's surgery, I think that's the definite moment that he felt absolutely no one loved him. Even his sister didn't forgive him. She essentially killed him once. Only chance/fate allowed him to survive. She DID give him the death sentence. Without Tenma, he would be dead and she would be living happily with no memory of him. That's what she chose when she pulled the trigger. I know he had a gratefulness to Tenma for saving his life, but it was not a relationship that enabled a change like "I don't feel alone anymore" or "I now see some value in the world." Even when he was older, he always pointed Dr. Tenma and his sister to his forehead whenever he had [allowed himself to have] been cornered by them. "Kill me." And they never did shoot him again, though I'm sure Nina would have if she didn't regain all her memories in time. He knew he was wrong but that alone didn't stop him from being bad.
Also for Nina and Tenma, Johan never tried to kill them. He was benevolent towards both of them even in head on confrontations. I think that's the most affection he could show during the time where everyone else searching for answers was dropping like flies. Though they never voiced it I guess Nina and Tenma knew that meant he loved them? Very twisted but he never raised a gun to them even if he had one on hand.
*Mother Monster; Jomama*
I'm calling her Anna, according to the love letter behind her portrait. There are some issues I have in general with her logic/sanity.
1) She harbored a deep hatred for KP. She said her children would have revenge on him while they were still growing in her womb. That's an abnormal mental state in my opinion. And if you take into account what I said about spirituality throughout the series, it's almost as if she was predestining them to be cursed with the task of hunting him down; they would be individuals who couldn't escape the wrathful destiny she drove into them. Why couldn't she enact the revenge some way herself and leave them out of it? They were just kids.
Unborn kids.
But she was dead serious that they'd return to get him. I dunno, just seems weird. She was still alive throughout the whole series too; memory altered and stuff but still...she had time if she would have regained them (both her children did and she had more time and capabilities than they did, already being an adult)
2) She was definitely experimented on if KP wrote a letter "returning" her name to her (whether it got to her or not; probably not). Ok, so their mother already has mental baggage having to deal with manipulated memories. Mothers with mental baggage may end up relating to their children in a weird way which affects how they develop emotionally (trust, logic, etc). I wonder how they saw her act on a regular basis? Did she ever break down? She had a sweet singing voice but that's all Nina said while under hypnosis. And the "why are you crying?" was Johan's memory right? Not a normal response to say given the situation. --Mental baggage.
3) After her escape, while she was raising the twins before Nina was taken away, did she always dress them the same? When Nina and Johan escaped together (post Red Rose Mansion) they had gender-specific clothing. But during the confrontation where she made the choice they were dressed the same. Did she know they were coming that day? Maybe not but I think it's easier to cut both children's hair short rather than get a wig, separate clothes and accessories for the boy over several weeks/months. This might have had an effect on how Johan viewed himself as the same half/person as Nina since they even looked identical (had he a mirror or something to see himself). Also might have destroyed a strong attachment to his own gender in my opinion (he easily crossdresses and imitates a female voice to fool Detective Suk. Actually goes around living as a woman for a good few weeks. That's...interesting. Knows exactly how to look like Nina, apply makeup, walk in heels...like dude!!)
4) She actually chose. Even if she couldn't keep them from taking one of her children, she actually made a choice between them. Even if she truly had a preference she could have held onto both for as long as possible or something. I think it's weirdly logical that she chose one. Wouldn't an average person say something like "you can't have either!" and resist until they got beat silly or something? Even if they knew it was futile from the beginning, they wouldn't choose like that. Something's wrong with her.
5) After making her choice, she left Johan alone. Bruh. You can't even own up to what you did? Why not give them both then? At least they *might* have actually been together through it all. *I know KP only wanted one* Not sure how long Johan was left there alone, but he sure waited until Nina came back. And she was counting meals and stuff in there so...it was a while. She left at some point before Nina came back. Not good. Did she ever check to see whether it was Johan or Nina who was left behind? What if she did...or didn't. Guess it doesn't matter at that point.
6) Another Monster confirms she was a twin too. It confirms that she had a complex about her reportedly dead twin that didn't survive. That's also mental baggage that existed before KP got to her.
Now. Now...
In Another Monster, I don't know why the sketch was there. I would assume when Johan woke up--if he woke up, he slipped away. If he has lost the destructive impulses he had before, he would likely want to just wither away in silence somewhere. I think he's just tired. I don't think he'd try to connect to Nina or Tenma. Too much shame and Johan-ness.
The books being ordered definitely tells us that someone is replicating the experiment. And if another Johan is out there somewhere, ok I guess that was the point of the murders which the journalist was following.
Why did he draw Johan! I like the idea of Anna's twin never having died and having a child of her own who resembles Johan but--what are the chances that father would look like Johan's father in order to have an almost identical face?! Uh I feel like we talked about Tenor Poppe possibly impregnating somebody and a girl marrying next-town boy and then someone here and there and...did anyone ever make a family tree? It would help my poor tired brain. I also just need to read it for the second time. I'll actually make one for myself maybe. Sounds fun.
Also, KP targeting Mother Monster after he heard that she was a twin herself: what's with him and the twin research? He had to have written those books before she gave birth to twins right? His psychological experiments went over how to mold a human basically. The deprivation of identity; the manipulation of memory, etc. Why would it matter whether it was conducted between twins or not, as opposed to other children? Why conduct his experiment on just one of the twins?
Also again yeah I know Nina talked to Lipsky about the book readings (she didn't go to any but she read the associated books which he had with him, right?) but I can't remember why Johan was holding a copy of The Nameless Monster when waiting for Nina to come back; also when General Wolf found them. Did he attend book readings separately at some point but Nina was simply taken at another point--no, stupid. That's stupid right. Moving on.
Other things that struck me throughout the original series:
When Tenma told Gillen that he cheated during the test too, I got the feeling he was lying. Don't know why, I just never believed him. I feel like he said that because it was easier to relieve Gillen of the guilt he was carrying (and impression he believed Tenma held regarding him) rather than continuing to explain that no, he never looked down on him. I'm trying to find a concrete reason for my skepticism, and I'm going to say it's cause they actually never SHOWED any sign of Tenma cheating in the flashbacks, though it's really not. I just think he lied.
Also... ...The first time Johan started sobbing when he picked up that picture book in the library, I didn't believe him. I was waiting for him to have a reason to have been admitted to the clinic, or that maybe he'd conveniently miss the ceremony in order for another one of his plans to be carried out. With hesitance spanning several episodes I realized something traumatic actually happened to him in that moment.
Also with Karl at the rooftop? I didn't see those tears as real. I don't know if somebody else's story could move Johan like that, at that point in the story. But maybe he was actually touched. Why though? Just because Karl said he wanted a family? Many children Johan's spent time with might have had the same sentiments but I don't think he'd show them emotion like that.
*Also quick note: I think it was cute that he was putting together a "children's rights" paper/project thing during that arc. I think he was half serious, but the other half of him was doing it for kicks or irony or...I dunno. I just think that was an interesting thing for him to independently put together in school.
Nina. I didn't quite trust her as a protagonist for a few reasons. First, she is Johan's TWIN. Whatever happened to them back in the day, I was kind of waiting on her to behave darkly as well because if Johan turned out the way he did, where are her destructive impulses? For the most part she acted like a normal girl though. She took on the same responsibility as Tenma to hunt him down and kill him once part of her memory returned, but dang, I thought she'd maybe try to connect with him as a sister since she seemed to understand his motives more than others sometimes. Didn't she say something like she understood why he did...something? Ugh. I have to go back.
But anyway, I guess this goes back to her never forgiving him. She didn't value a bond as siblings as a way to connect to him or make him stop; instead it was still "He took away someone I liked; I'm going to eliminate him. I don't care if you're my brother" --I guess she wouldn't carry too many fond memories about him anyway compared to the damage he's done.
Ironically, I don't value blood bonds just because of a person being related to me. HOWEVER, if I lived with a person who was my brother, liked them, trusted them, and then he turned out to be killing our caretakers, I would probably be partially horrified. What the heck's going on in his head? What's he capable of? I don't know if I would shoot him on the spot. I'd probably want to talk. I know they were children though so she didn't have this perspective at her disposal.
But I think part of the reason she did shoot was because of her experience at RRM. Wouldn't a normal kid, even if they're scared, want to know why you did something? She was familiar with him. She seemed to treat him as the leader sort of and he was protective of her, so furthermore if she were passive/desperate enough, despite what he did to others she could have clung to him as a protector even though he killed their providers. She followed him around for a while after they escaped from the hospital, for instance. Yet she chose to shoot him that night instead of doing the same thing she did later? Weird.
Does anyone know why she was going to kill herself after she and Johan met at the Red Rose Mansion? That interaction had me suspiiiicious that she actually didn't go through it either; maybe it really was Johan and she was so disturbed by...I don't know? Their recounts of the story were slightly different too weren't they? Nina remembers the thorns hurting; Johan didn't notice them as he escaped the mansion. Also the fact that Nina couldn't differentiate Johan from herself from her memories means of course she suffers from the "I am you you are me" thing too. But anyway it's pretty clear that it was actually her who was taken away. Part of me was just...you can never be too sure man. She wanted to shoot him and then herself though. I guess the wounds manifested as self-harming impulses in her mind? No--actually maybe like the God of Peace, she sees her own existence as problematic since Johan is her reflection.
Anyway whenever Nina remembers something from her past, she often faints and ends up in a clinic or she really freaks out and--man the crazy thing regarding Lipsky is, wasn't she recuperating for three months?! That's a craaazy amount of time. Serious mental baggage man. She had nightmares that the neighbors would hear, screaming fits and stuff I'm sure. That would be terrifying to deal with. And I'm sure revisiting the books also broke her sanity a few times during her stay there.
(It never showed how Johan dealt with this trauma so I guess he didn't receive as much damage from the memories as he did from Mother Monster. The book he picked up made him scream/sob and faint, and that's all we get from him. Does that mean his time at K11 was forgotten until then? Maybe I'm stupid but I don't think Johan forgets the things he does or else he would be known by people wouldn't he? He'd have friends and be nice until he snaps and then kills people. The more typical case of disassociative disorder they were trying to pin on Tenma. So what memories did Johan need to gain except where KP was? I feel stupid for asking...don't answer this one)
The aggression she showed Dr. Gillen too. Why did she start strangling him? I'm assuming a monster persona exists within her too and she, uh...started acting on it. But why? All this time she's managed to not act violently towards others, but the moment she remembered everything, and while under questioning, she went murderous. That's scary.
...Anything else?
...
Not at the moment. I guess I'll come back when I'm ready.
Thanks again guys. Beautiful discussion we have here.
Just went back and rewatched Monster recently, so I thought I'd check back up on this thread and contribute a bit more to the discussion. Truly a wonderful series that gives you so much to think about, and so much to discuss!
>She actually chose. Even if she couldn't keep them from taking one of her children, she actually made a choice between them.
I think the mention of her unborn twin sister was a very relevant piece of info to understanding Viera's actions here. Her own mother chose between her and her twin, and so maybe she didn't think that there ever was the option of "not choosing". And if you pay close attention to the way that Johan and Nina worded their pleas, you can see that she doesn't betray either of them. Johan said "Don't let go", while Nina said "Don't let go of my hand". Since Johan's plea could be interpreted both physically and emotionally, Viera didn't let him go either way. But the way Nina had pleaded to her was much more specific; see, even when the mother shoved her towards Bonaparta, she didn't let go of her daughter's hand. She did her best to grant both of their wishes, even if she technically surrendered one of them to the experiment.
>Why did he draw Johan!
I actually have a theory about this. What if, instead of that sketch being Weber's drawing of the person who came to visit him (of which most of us assume is Johan), it was actually Fuhr's sketch of Johan instead? Fuhr is an illustrator himself - as demonstrated by "The Awakening Monster" manuscript - and I don't think he would be familiar enough with Johan to draw him in much detail, so thus the vague and messy scribbles. Maybe the two of them were discussing Johan, and Weber asked him what Johan was like or something. I honestly have a tough time believing that it was Johan who actually visited Weber, because the style of his mysterious disappearance just doesn't seem like something Johan would do. He left behind too much evidence (the tape, the storybook manuscript, etc.) and the mannerism of the person speaking on the phone just doesn't sound like him at all...
>Does anyone know why she was going to kill herself after she and Johan met at the Red Rose Mansion?
Nina thought she was the one responsible for turning her brother into a monster, after learning that he'd thought of her experience at the Mansion as his own. She blames herself for ever sharing that story with him and implanting the first (second?) seeds of darkness within him, revealing to him the terrible cruelty that humans as a society are capable of.
The one thing that still baffles me the most, though, is Johan's original intentions (before finding out about his past). He obviously felt no pleasure in his killings, and I doubt he was getting rid of corrupt authorities for the sake of justice, either. So what was the point of him isolating Wolf and Schuwald? To make more monsters like himself? But that doesn't really make sense, considering Roberto's statement that Johan was initially planning for him kill Schuwald during the library ceremony. Did he want to erase all traces of himself from the world? Then why did he appear in public as Schuwald's secretary? Why move around so much to so many different families, when staying with one for a longer time would give you less people to dispose of when the time came? Was he perhaps trying to destroy society and instill fear (ie. construct a "scenery of the doomsday")? That doesn't seem very likely either, considering the careful selection of his victims. If Johan just wanted chaos, why the middle-aged couple killings, and not just stuff like the underground bank/self-destruction of 511 Kinderheim? I honestly don't get it at all. What the hell was he trying to do?
Also, the first two messages that Johan had left for Tenma, the two quotes from "The Nameless Monster". Why did he write them? Wasn't his memory of that book still buried away at that time? How did he manage to think of those quotes???
Ugh, Johan is such a complex character that I just can't understand his motives, no matter how many times I review the series. I think Lunge described him the best in "Another Monster", calling him "a Buddha drawn towards destruction". That's really all he is, isn't it? An incomprehensible, almost supernatural force of destruction, something you can very remotely relate to yet never truly understand....
That's a really good point. I forgot that he was able to quote the book way back then--
but then again sometimes memory works that way I guess? There have been bits and pieces of a book, for instance, that I read many many years ago, and I remember one short scene from it. Nothing else about the characters or their origins. To this day I can't remember the name of the book--well I just googled "book about stuffed animals coming to life stingray" because the only scene I remember was where a stuffed animal stingray, one of the main characters, jumps into the bathtub believing she will swim like real stingrays, but all that happens is her stuffing gets heavy with water and she starts sinking...and sinking...the chapter ends there and maybe that's why my younger self remembers it. The sense of disappointment and fear that the character must have gone through as she sank to the bottom of the bathtub, and couldn't move or get out until someone found her. What was it like at the bottom of the bathtub? I remembered that part alone to this day. But anyway, I found the series again because I have something as convenient as google search at my disposal! I know they had email and computers at least in the series, but perhaps the capabilities of a search jogging his memory were more limited than the personal case I just described? He also might have been able to find the book earlier (just as I could) and simply didn't have a desire to learn what it was, like I didn't. I remembered that one instance from the book yet never felt the need to revisit the whole series. Maybe in that sense the lines from the book were a familiar phrase to him that he felt appropriate for his messages to Tenma, even though he technically didn't remember where they came from.
As for Johan's intentions, I too am at a loss. It could be that he internally related to the nameless monster story so much that he embodied its qualities and imitated its behavior. The monster had no pleasure necessarily in killing for the sake to kill either; it was hungry. It needed to eat; it just had to--perhaps this need to kill stemmed from its desire for an identity, so it would jump from host to host. Johan, also possessing a twin and suffering from an identity disorder, might have identified with the "bad" monster because he too wanted a place in the world and a name to be called by. After the incident with his mother I believe he took the nihilistic stance towards life and had a sense of "I am nobody." The mother choosing between him and his sister (the person he viewed also to be an extension of himself) instilled firstly a sense that he has no place in the world that is safe, and that he will never know who she meant to give away and who to keep. That's what he wanted to know deep down, but as a defense mechanism he could have also developed the nihilistic notion that it didn't matter either way who was taken and who was kept; that such arbitrary distinctions is why it happened. It simply never mattered who stayed or not--and this could or could not be related to the Mother's (possible lack of) affection for either child, but also the event could have further nursed this notion inside of him that he and his sibling are the same person. So defaulting to the story he identified with, a half of the nameless monster had gone off wandering and they would again find each other again like in the story.
Needless to say, he was not happy with what happened there and he looked at his mother with contempt after that, but perhaps with a new lack of trust in adults and the world, he ended up clinging to the storybook pattern. Just as the nameless monster benefited from being in the host and being loved by those around it, it (as Johan specifically) ate all those in the castle. Regardless of the love given, there was an innate destruction awaiting anyone who took care of the monster. Johan, who believed for a long time that he was this monster, imitated the story.
So...that's all I can try to suggest about Johan. He definitely did not stop what he was doing, but those key moments of pointing to his forehead show a person not concerned with being put to his death. He told Nina at the end of Monster that what he did was not something to be forgiven. I think he felt bad the whole time but at least after he "awakened from his dream" he FOR SURE felt bad for the things he did but maybe felt too corrupted and vile to stop them, and definitely believed he deserved to die, 100%. Hence the perfect suicide plan.
Technically when he killed the Lieberts though, he told Nina something to the effect of "a monster has come to take us away." Maybe that means he saw Bonaparte and thought they were going to be given away again? I doubt he had any trust in any adults at this point in his life when even his mother had betrayed him and his sister. So perhaps Bonaparte returning to a place where they both lived made him feel that 1) they'd been found and were going to be confined again 2) their caretakers were traitors/unable to protect them 3) fueled with the dissociation into the nameless monster character, the actions feel more natural or like he's done it before anyway. If you're pretending you're another person, it's easier to do things you might not normally do. But of course, when she found out that he killed their caretakers, even then he told her to kill him. That seems self loathing to me. Most people don't want to die. Being shot point blank is almost a guarantee that you will.
He had few reasons to want to live even back then. Maybe Nina hating him also confirmed for himself how terrible a person he was, since both halves of himself showed contempt for his actions.
Man, alright you guys! I just finished getting to the end of this absolutely incredible discussion thread regarding "Monster" and "Another Monster". Needless to say, there's so many excellent theories and ideas regarding the two works, that it would be impossible for me to address them all, and anyway, I'm so late to the party that I don't know if anyone's even still around to care.
I need, of course, to thank Gina for sending me the finished translation of the book, and for leading me to this discussion. Thank you Gina!
I just recently finished watching "Monster" and reading "Another Monster", though, and I swear it's just about one of the best things I've ever come across.
Just a few words regarding the most recent posts here. I think initially Johan's only goal/motivation was to protect Anna/Nina/His sister, and that's really what drives the sense of tragedy around him. He DOES seem like a force of nature, this unstoppable, terrifyingly intelligent, brutally dangerous being throughout the series. But there's key moments where we see an awful, really heartbreaking vulnerability to him, and I think those moments, few as they are, really serve to reinforce that fact that Johan ISN'T a monster, in truth. He's a young man, once a young boy, who was the victim of a true monster in Bonaparta, and possibly, though likely unintentionally, his mother.
I think one thing you can say with absolute certainty about Johan is that he loves his sister. Really loves her. And of course it's such a deep contrast with how he relates and feels about everyone else in the series, save Dr. Tenma, of course. But it's obvious that Johan's first instance of committing murder (the older couple who give him and Nina food while they're escaping across the border) was done simply in an attempt to protect his sister. We see the couple discussing the fact that they can't keep Johan and Nina, that they must have run away from home for a reason, etc... but they can't take care of them, implying of course that they're going to end up calling some sort of authorities to come and get the children. After everything they had been through, with their mother, and Bonaparta, and Nina telling Johan what had happened to her at the RRM, Johan would have felt absolutely determined not to let Bonaparta get his hands on Nina again at that point, no matter what it took. And so he kills the couple.
What's also a really important moment I think is the flashback to their childhood, when they're trying to escape across the border, and Anna/Nina collapses from exhaustion finally. Johan is holding her hand, and he doesn't let go, ever. Even when she's falling behind. Even when she finally collapses. He doesn't let go of her hand, and he stays with her, ready and willing to die with her. His face in that scene is so peaceful, really serene. He isn't scared. It's obvious at that point that his sister is the only thing in the whole world that matters. Symbolically, the way that juxtaposes against their mother letting go of Nina's hand is really powerful. Johan never abandons his sister, the way their mother did.
And of course this all ties back in with Johan's obvious identity issues. I think it's an important distinction to make in saying, rather then Johan thinks of Nina as an extension of him, he thinks of himself as an extension on Nina. Because of their mother forcing him to dress as his sister when they were children, and because of the brainwashing of being left alone in their apartment, abandoned by their mother, with only "The Nameless Monster" as a companion (Bonaparta says, when he comes for one of the twins "this is an experiment", and I think he fully means an experiment involving both children. Leaving one of them there was always part of the plan, I think, and I think Bonaparta left the story book with Johan on purpose at that moment) , reading it over and over again, Johan obviously comes to conflate his existence as being one in the same as Nina's. He sees them as being the same person, but his sister is the driving, living, meaningful part of this one being. Johan wants to serve his sister. We see this too in the flashback with them, when Johan is hiding the acorns in his hands, and Nina finally figures out he has them in both hands, so she'll always choose correctly, she'll always be right. Johan wants to give the world to Nina, because to him she's the only other person in the world, she's the only one that matters. He tells her everything she sees is hers, "because it just is". He can't see anyone else as having any claim to anything, including himself. He's just an extension of his sister.
We see it again when Johan tells Nina to shoot him that night, when he kills the Lieberts. He tells her it's alright "because I am you, you are me.". Johan's sense of self is so wrapped up in his sister, that in a way it's like the ultimate selfless self-sacrifice. The ultimate embodiment of existing for another's benefit only.
I think it's why, when Johan doesn't die, and he wakes up in the hospital, and Nina sees him, and her reaction to seeing him awake is to scream and then run from him in horror, is such a traumatic experience for Johan, and we see him crying. He's crying because the one person he shared any kind of connection with has just literally and figuratively rejected him. That moment in the hospital, I think, is the true moment Johan becomes the so called "monster". When he loses he one, last human connection. It's ultimately very tragic, and part of what makes Johan as a character to fascinating and relateable, in a strange way.
The other moment when we really get a glimpse of Johan's humanity and vulnerability, of course, is the tape recording of him in 511 Kinderheim. That recording always left me feeling so uneasy and weighed down with a sense of sadness. Johan SOUNDS like a child in that recording. He doesn't sound like an unstoppable force of nature. He sounds like a vulnerable, hurt, scared little boy who's being abused, and we hear the aural evidence of that abuse. It's what makes the tape so disturbing too. And Johan actually gives voice to his fear, which is that he'll forget Anna/Nina/His Sister, because of what they're doing to him in that place.
The irony of course is that Johan, despite his confused and lapsed memories, never does forget his sister, while she very much forgets him. And I think by the end of the series, Nina realizes that it was that pivotal moment, when she chose to shoot Johan, thus rejecting him, that was the final breaking point for him. If she hadn't shot him, and instead showed him love and acceptance and understanding, he likely never would have gone down the path he did, despite all he had been through and done already.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts regarding Johan and his initial motivations. I think once he felt totally rejected by his sister, he decided that world destruction was the only option, and all of his efforts thereafter, like setting up the underground bank, making moves to gain financial and political power, etc... were all done in service towards that goal. Johan was never interested in power. He was interested in wiping everything out, basically creating a state of entropy, because that was how he viewed the world. He wanted to force the rest of the world from their delusion of purpose and meaning and life and make them see, as General Wolf says, "a world with no names". A world with no meaning or identity or purpose. And of course, after he finds "The Nameless Monster" and it reawakens his lost memories of his mother and the Red Rose Mansion, etc... his goals shift to something on a smaller scale, but which ultimately ties back into doing it all for his sister. He decides to kill Bonaparta for Nina, all memory of Bonaparta, and then when he realizes, after Nina tells him that his memories of the RRM are actually her own, Johan realizes at last they they aren't the same person. He realizes they're separate. And so his last, parting expression of love to her is to kill himself and all memory of him, along with Bonaparta, basically, I think, to free her from the memory and weight of her past.
Anyway, I've rambled on too long now. Since this is technically a thread about "Another Monster", I think you guys have pretty much covered all the bases that can be covered regarding the book and what it's ending might imply. I felt initially after finishing it that it was really Johan who was on the phone with Weber, because of the sketch at the end. I don't think it makes sense for it to be anyone BUT Johan, as the resemblance is too close for the author to expect the reader to think it could be anybody else. But really, it's sort of impossible to say if Johan was actually involved with the whole thing or not. There's so many good theories in this thread, the one positing that Fure is Johan's father is really good, and would makes sense, given his seemingly similar ability to manipulate others, etc... And Johan's apparently being drawn to "Dorn in the Darkness". It would be interesting to discuss here why people think Johan regarding that sereies as his favorite book.
I do think Johan did wake up. There's too many references throughout the story about him being in a coma, and people dismissing the idea that he could have woken up, and people in general just being cagey and clueless about whether he still IS in a coma or not. It seems like an obvious indication to me that he's awake and out there. But whether he decides to continue on as he had before, or to simply disappear into obscurity is anyone's guess. I agree that by the end of the series, Johan just seemed, as the poster above me put it, tired, and like he didn't want to do any of it anymore. So that would make me think he just decided to finally stop, and disappear. Again, who knows. There doesn't seem to be any definitive answers to any of it, haha. Still, what an amazing character, and an amazing story in general. I haven't had this much fun reading about something in a long time. If anyone has any more ideas regarding any of it, I'd love to read them, of course!
Also, I just want to point out, the sketch at the end of "Another Monster" can't be Johan's father, because we know what Johan's father looks like. We see pictures and flashbacks of him throughout the series, and he really doesn't look much like Johan at all. So it definitely can't be him that the sketch is of. Another piece of evidence I think that it IS Johan in the sketch. Whether that means Johan was there or not remains a mystery though. But again, I like the theory that Fuhr is Johan's father, because of their shared abilities to manipulate people and come up with the kinds of stories that Bonaparta did. How many people are there that have that kind of super human brainwashing ability and intelligence, as Lunge describes it? Not many, would be my guess. Lunge even says that if there is another monster, he won't be the same as Johan, because Johan was special. So just some random, unrelated person having the same ability as him doesn't seem likely.
Unless they're actually related by genetics, and then it would seem possible. So yeah, I think that's a good theory for that reason alone, and all the others reasons pointed out here.
Hello, everyone!
I recently finished watching Monster and reading AM. It's a fantastic series that deserves more attention. Many of the characters are complex and intriguing. I also love that we're given history lessons on the Cold War, the Communist Party, and the collapse of the Berlin Wall. It succinctly led up to the events in Monster, which made the series feel realistic. Urasawa is a very meticulous storyteller :D
Everyone's theories are excellent. I agree with most of them, honestly. I also agree with Nicole that Johan valued his sister more than anything. Throughout the series, he continued looking for her, but after facing rejection, he moved toward world destruction. Nothing else appeared to matter to him.
Since I feel that most of the theories in Monster and AM have already been covered, I'd like to discuss one of main themes of Monster: one's own identity. Disguising himself as his sister during his time in Prague and living as a man who appears nonexistent to the world was Johan's crisis to attain his identity. Dr. Tenma, on the other hand, never truly fit into Japanese and German society. He was an outcast in both cultures, as indicated in AM.
I noticed that people who initially identified Johan and Dr. Tenma regarded them as "a beautiful, blonde young man" and "an oriental Asian man," respectively. Their physical appearances make up their identity, but it's as if they're living without names. Both of them walked the Earth as lone wolves who didn't identify with who they were. They knew how people characterized them, yet their self-worth was continuously challenged.
While watching Monster, I kept asking myself, "Who is Johan? Who exactly is Dr. Tenma?" These individuals are mysterious figures, as their motives and ambitions were difficult for others to understand.
I think this series heavily indicated how we look into ourselves and how others view us. Our identities are integral as human beings, but when they're lost, we all have the potential to live as Nameless Monsters.
Hello. I've finished Monster (both anime and manga) a few years ago. Yet would you believe that I only recently knew that Another Monster exists? Shocking. Granted I never actively looked for new material after I ended the series, but still. So after that I tried scouring the interwebs in search for Another Monster, and my search has led me here. Looking at the first page in this thread, I can see that this go way back to 2010 and that my inquiry will have been almost a decade late. But I shall not be daunted. I'll still post this request despite how late it is in the hopes that some of you might spot this.
So does anyone here have a full copy of this novel? I'm very interested in reading this that during the last quarter of last year, I tried to search our local bookstores for a copy but to no avail. I also don't know how to shop online so I never checked any online shops. This thread is my last hope. So if any kind soul here has a full copy of this novel, I would like to humbly request of you to send me a copy. Please. I want to read this in my free time. It would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Hello Gina, I'd like to know if you are aware of any available copies of the novel in English for sale. I've been looking everywhere on the Internet, I even used some "obscure" Google hacking search strings but I found absolutely nothing. Do you have any idea of how many copies were issued in English? Apparently not even a single person has one for sale online.
Hi HuMonster, Felix,
You haven't been able to find a physical copy of this book because no official translation of this novel in English exists. At most, you might be able to find a copy in Spanish or Italian.
Fortunately, Erich Springer and Gina Szanboti have worked hard to remedy the situation. And they've done an excellent job of it. Please read the posts in this thread from march and april of 2017.
Cheers,
Marc
Wait, that should be Stephen Paul and Gina Szanboti. Sorry.
More information on the availability of Another Monster can be found on this page:
https://erich-springer.livejournal.com/57468.html
hello , i am already read and watch monster like more than 5 times since long ago. about early this year i knew that Another Monster exists ,unfortunately it is only exist on japan.
luckily recently i got full english version from gina (thanks!! you great!!)
now i will start reading another monster , hope there is some story about my favorite character wolfgang grimmer. i also curious about last episode of magnificent steiner hope i can find it on another monster
I feel so terrible for abandoning this thread, and I still don't have time to read and digest all the comments I see people have left since I last checked in, but I recently ran across this article that gave me a chill in light of the ending of Another Monster.
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/11/12/news/czechs-say-school-abused-us-children.html
PRAGUE — Czech police have arrested four people, including two Americans, on charges of physically abusing and imprisoning American youths at an unlicensed reform school for wayward teenagers.
The school, Moravia Academy, reportedly opened earlier this year in a secluded hotel about 200 kilometers (120 miles) from Prague...
...
The teacher said that the students were also forbidden to leave the grounds, which are protected by guard dogs. The newspaper said the youths' days were programmed from 6:30 A.M. to 9:30 P.M. and that they were forced to "sing positive songs, read positive books and were subjected to 30 minutes of psychological pressure from tape recordings."
Monster predates this, which just makes me think that weird coincidences just echo around the universe to make us crazy. ;)
Hi, everyone. So yeah, I'm still alive. Hope you're all staying safe and doing well. Am here just to drop a link to Reddit. There's a relatively new Monster subreddit that I've found. Hopefully, we can help it to grow and maybe even attract some attention to this forum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NamelessMonster?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
P.S. Hi, Gina. The article you shared is truly chilling. But sadly, it's not a surprise to me that abuse like this exists in real life too. In the past, I researched such topics as MKUltra, child abuse, psychological abuse, torture and behaviour modification for my writing. And unfortunately, have experienced some abuse as a child as well. I suppose that's why Monster struck a chord with me all those years ago. In Johan, I saw a reflection of pain that was similar to mine. And similarly to him, my mother was the perpetrator of my trauma. Am mostly fine now, just still working through that. Hope you are well!
I'm a newcomer! Hi everyone!
Hi, newcomer! As you can see, this place is a little bit quiet... But a few of us are still around!
Hello,i have a question why viera abandoned twins,she had no reason to,no one was after her,only capek knew of her and he helped franz,viera is the real monatet she basically told their kids to fuck off,when she told them to live on their own
Hey,i think this anime has enormous amount of plotholes,some things arent explained,who gave johan book?what happened between 1975-1981,were twins attending seminar between 2-6 year olds,what the fuck was viera thinking?she just fucking abandoned them and works in genetic laboratory?how dare you?even if someone was chasing you,you could live in another country with twins
Like these are no minor questions,what happened johan before he was 6-7 he already killed someone when he was 6-7,author be like it all to interpretation,no you are lazy fuck,who constructed great story on non existent foundation,i thought it was my favorite anime when i was 18 but now i am 20 and read am and think both stories are 7/10 maximum,i hate its all up to interpretation,no you are just lazy to write detailed and belivebale story naoki,but you certainly can you wrote 20 th century boys which was great and had all the answers
Like these are no minor questions,what happened johan before he was 6-7 he already killed someone when he was 6-7,author be like it all to interpretation,no you are lazy fuck,who constructed great story on non existent foundation,i thought it was my favorite anime when i was 18 but now i am 20 and read am and think both stories are 7/10 maximum,i hate its all up to interpretation,no you are just lazy to write detailed and belivebale story naoki,but you certainly can you wrote 20 th century boys which was great and had all the answers
Please can somebody logically tell me what happened between 1975-1982 in johans life?who gave him book?what was he doinh in house for two weeks in house?wasnt he starving?why mother told their kids to fuck off(from episode 72 from ninas speech you can deduce that),was johan more sensitive than nina?why nina didnt become monstet?how the fuck she knows those storybooks?what mom just grabbed them as souvenirs from bonaparta?so many fucking questions that are so important,thats why i cant say that monster is masterpiece, interpretaion is fucking wack,urasawa you son of a bitch!
Hello guys, I'm so sorry for my request and offtop, but may you send me the file of Another Monster in Japanese? I have searched all internet and couldn't find it.
Mate. Most of your questions were answered in Monster or Another Monster. Some of the questions were left intentionally unanswered. Like at the ending of Monster we saw Johan disappear but we didn't know what happened to him. However, this is a bad example because in Another Monster it specified that he was in a coma.
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