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JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 451 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65429372 07-08-2012 04:24 AM I don't know about you, but I wouldn't put it past the one sitting in the back :p. Yeah, that analysis was just me picking apart the darker edges of the story. But, disregarding purposeful evil behavior, I may be partial to the idea that the God was a fool because he gave out identities without knowing his own. I said earlier how Bonaparta's father may be the inspiration for the book, as I was trying to figure out why Bonaparta would have chosen this story in particular to bear the honor of being under his real name, Klaus Poppe. Does anyone remember what chapter they talk about his father's doings? I know he was a political activist, right? A well-known one? And I know that he forgot his identity at some point, but are we ever given any evidence of the father playing a God-like role? In that he was looked to as the leader? And when he saw Bonaparta in his true light (as the Devil), he himself "forgot his identity", as he realized that he had never known it. I'm guessing it's all in the chapters about Bonaparta and Poppe :D. I'll go check those out. Oh, I was just wondering if they were his earliest students because of what Wolf said. I stated that they might have joined up with Bonaparta's experiment, and the reason they were killed wasn't because they were his students, but because they were active participants in the huge scheme Bonaparta had been running.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 452 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65435806 07-08-2012 11:06 AM I don't think there's any question that Bonaparta's father lost his memory because his son was experimenting on him, presumably in revenge for stealing the village girl from him, and abandoning him and his mother. I had never considered the significance of The God of Peace being under Bonaparta's real name, but it's probably not a pseudonym only because that was his first book (1968). :) Still, if it means anything, I'd say it was expressing a sort of dawning realization that he himself was a monster, who had never really looked at himself to see it before, until something happened (?) that made him take stock of himself. If he did realize it that early on, apparently he was content to be so until Anna. In his role of rebuilding people's personalities, he was godlike, but if it's self-referential, it's ironic that his story persona was giving names rather than taking them.
TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 453 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65427022 07-08-2012 11:02 PM JohanT wrote: ....."God of Peach". Really now :D. Reminded me of this book. :D Tri Zaba: Oh, okay, that makes more sense than what I was trying to say. :D So basically, a similar story but with a twist in that a human is judging a human rather than the divine judging the demonic. Thematic Relationship: Meh, I'm too lazy to go through it and see what may have been my ideas. Honestly, I don't care that much. (If it bothers you that much, you could just go back and say that some ideas may have been taken from TophBeiFong. XD) Anyway, I tend to be of the opinion that Johan was trying to show Tenma that life is pointless because we all end up dying anyway. I believe he sees death as a sort of salvation, since to him existence is meaningless and full of pain. But yeah, who knows what he was really thinking? ^_^U ...Still, I wonder if our thoughts are really that different on this. If Johan wants Tenma to acknowledge death, isn't he also showing Tenma that death is part of the true nature of life? Well, I think the nature of the equality does differ here. If equality is achieved through death, it's not like any of us would be around to enjoy the equality. But if equality can be achieved while alive, everyone can enjoy having their worth acknowledged. I see that as quite a difference. I don't see it as Tenma doing the same thing as Johan but in a nicer way. Both are seeking equality, but what each does is different and the end result is different. As for the whole names deal (lol), I think you could be saying what I said but in a way that fits with your logic. I guess...that works? ^_^U Still, I view Tenma as seeing identity as important. In Wolfe's death scene, he asked Tenma to say his name. He was more than willing to do so. So it just seems weird that acknowledging everyone's different (but in Tenma's eyes, equal) identities is the same as everyone having the same identity (i.e. In this case, everyone is the same in that they're different yet valuable). Gah, the whole thing is just one big paradox, isn't it? I tried to reconcile it by saying that Tenma believes that equality and different identities aren't incompatible, but now you're making me confuzzled. :P
TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 454 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65427878 07-09-2012 12:03 AM Now, as for The God of Peace, I have a different theory. Maybe the God was once a demon, but he put on make-up to hide that he's a demon. After some time, however, he forgot that he was really a demon. It's sort of the inverse of "A Peaceful Home." And if The God of Peace really was Bonaparta's first book, then that makes things all the more interesting. And going along with JohanT's other idea, perhaps The God of Peace is somewhat like The Sleeping Monster in that giving names is something that only causes problems. In the case of The God of Peace, though, the god is giving names without knowing if the names imply something good or bad. So when he sees himself in the mirror, he sees that his own identity is a bad one, and by extension, the things he did could have turned out to be bad too. ...If that makes sense, anyway. :P I also like Gina's idea in that he realized that he may have been becoming a monster and only started to realize it just before he started writing the book. The only problem is that the ending of the book implied that the god may have committed suicide. In that light, I think he wrote it because of his own cynicism. Oh, and the idea of Bonaparta and his father being the demon and the god is very interesting too. ^_^
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 455 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65441228 07-09-2012 04:09 AM Thematic Significance: Will do. As for Johan wanting Tenma to acknowledge death, yes, I do believe he is attempting to show Tenma that it is a part of life. Tenma works to try and save everyone, but in the end, all those people he saved will die, by one cause or the other. Life is not permanent. But at the same time, since life and death are so interconnected, if life is to be deemed pointless, then so is death, in my eyes. So in the end, I don't know if Johan or Tenma could have "won", simply because I do not think Johan was pitting the equality risen from life against the one risen from death. The reason I do not believe Johan saw salvation in death is because he was never truly "alive" in the first place. It wasn't that, "Oh, I might as well be dead", it was more like, "Oh, I might as well have never existed". I do believe, figuratively speaking, that there is existence within death. As I said in my analysis of the names, "When one dies, they do not lose their name". That is why Johan would not be content to just die, but to erase all that could identify him as "existent" would be his ultimate end. He would have neither lived nor died. And at the moment, he is neither dead nor alive, because the entire purpose of either concept is lost on his own existence. I feel that his rejection of both life and death would fit his nihilistic perspective. If that makes any sense :D. I think, to sum it up in one statement, that Johan wanted Tenma to see death as he saw life, and thus to see Johan as he saw everyone else. If he gave value to everyone, why not give one to Johan, just as he should give death the value he gives life... Honestly, the scene where they face off in the very end was a very "Look at me" moment. Reminded me very much of Johan staring into Schuwald's eyes. I actually don't think we have differing views on the equality issue :D. A "nicer way" implies something that would be enjoyable to us as humans, seeing as we are still living. At the same time, the supposedly "same thing" that both characters are working towards is equality, so I do think that they are, in a vague sense, identical, but again, the methods and "enjoyment" results will be different :D. But the overarching goal is for humanity to have even footing. Whether this be in existence or nonexistence, it matters not, in my opinion. It almost makes me wonder if Johan wasn't being extraordinarily merciful in comparison to what he could have done: erase humanity's identity as a whole. He let most die with their names. Which is...interesting. This is similar to what I said before about people existing in death, if they still had names (or someone to remember their names). They would still "exist" in death, just as they "exist" in life, like in Tenma's scenario. And this could possibly be added into their connection of two people working towards a uniform goal. I find that intriguing. In addition, based on my analysis of the scenery of a doomsday, it looks as though neither of them wins at all. Life and death are gone. But is "existence" gone? I'll go more into this if anyone's interested, because I do have a few ideas, but for now, I'll leave it at that :D. >.< Yeah, I succeeded in messing up my own view on this names business. See, he acknowledges value. But if everyone is equally valuable, then by default, everyone is the same...if that makes sense. It would be as if they all had the same name, as they are all equal, yet if the name gives value, then they are all being given the same value. I see it as "same name = same value". And to Johan, whether they are undervalued or highly valued, humanity is given the same exact value as well.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 456 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65441574 07-09-2012 11:25 AM I still take issue with any theories deriving from the GoP wearing makeup. :) His big red nose and cheeks are simply indicative of alcohol-exacerbated rosacea, like W. C. Fields. :) It's a common enough combination that people have come to associate the bulbous red nose and blushed cheeks with excess (rather than simply a skin disease), and so it's a handy visual cue regarding the god's happy if busy life. The god's suggested suicide might either have been a reference to Bonaparta's acceptance of his monstrous side and the killing of the part of him that still cared about people, or just something he wrote into the story to give it the hopeless despair it needed for its intended purpose. I guess it could be both. Maybe his own deadening despair about himself made him see how to develop the stories as a tool to instill it in others. If the story is self-referential at all, it may suggest that Bonaparta started out thinking his program was a benefit to his country, and for which he received praise (and all his activities at the time certainly kept him very busy, as we talked about back when - too busy for self-examination), but maybe his superiors did reward him with something (a promotion? wearing a new hat in the heirarchy?) that made him ponder the harm he was doing to people.
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 457 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 07-11-2012 08:03 AM So, they won't let me post the link to the tumblr post I just read, but I'll send it to anyone who's interested. Apparently, it was taken from someone's theory, and translated into English. While reading this, I didn't get the impression that anything particularly new was brought up, but I did have some comments on certain assertions that were drawn. Firstly, the whole business with Johan never actually meeting up with Nina... Most fans, myself as well, may have initially concluded that he simply failed in this regard. However, I don't actually think that Johan wanted to take Nina away. In reality, I think he just wanted to see her reaction to his presence. When the two of them stood in that run-down building, the first thing Johan does is welcome her back. After exchanging what appears to be small talk, he points to his forehead, asking her if she can shoot him, "like last time". More than anything, I believe Johan wanted to determine Nina's feelings towards him, and assess which would be her choice this time: to shoot or to forgive. In the Liebert house, Nina was unaware of what Johan was, but once she stumbles upon the truth in the form of her dead foster parents, she chooses to kill. In the current situation, Nina lost her memories, and once again comes face to face with the death of beloved parents. The situations are reasonably similar. And in a way, it would seem as though Johan wants to know if the choice will be the same this time... As it is, if he truly wanted to reunite with her, the opportunity came when the Neo-Nazis held Nina as "bait" for the second Hitler. Johan arrived in time to kill those in the household, but, even though he no doubt knew that Nina was in the house somewhere, he simply disappeared. Johan's fate is decided by the choice of other people. His mother, Nina, and Tenma are all given that luxury of being the one's who make the decisions. All those choices revolved around life and death. Or if he existed or didn't exist. Second, I found the part about Johan stumbling upon The Nameless Monster interesting. In his mind, it was fictional simply because he was the nameless monster. A fictional character will not know that they are apart of a story read by non-fictional people. But once the story was in his hands, there came a form of detachment, and he realized that he wasn't the nameless monster. For the nameless monster existed within paper, while he existed in flesh. And this is when Johan stops following the storybook for some period of time. But afterwards, he gravitates towards the scenery of a doomsday, specifically because his other half (Nina) rejected him. Since she refused him, what else could he allow to define him? Naturally, the nameless monster, or the beast itself, were his options. It's interesting that the "God of Peace" moment between Johan and Nina is reinforced when Wim's father sees the beast within Johan...almost as though the God failed to kill the Devil, so in that moment, the Devil was what Nina saw Johan as, so he became the essential "beast".
TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 458 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65460924 07-12-2012 06:35 PM @JohanT: Well, I wouldn't say that we have the exact same view on the equality issue. You think the method and intentions don't matter. I think they do. I view them as more of the inverse of each other than as identical. But whatever. XD And at one point, I think he may have actually been trying to erase humanity's identity. He wanted to be the last person alive at the end of the world, after all. But there's also the possibility that he did that on a small scale each time he did made up some plan to enact. Evidence of this can be seen when he's speaking to Nina and tells her that he has seen "the end" over and over. But if you want me to twist his letting people die with their names, he only tried to isolate people that he cares about or finds interesting: Nina, Wolfe, Tenma, and Schuwald. The other people he killed? They were already insignificant to him, so it's as if they're already nameless. As for the theory, was it from a blog called Johan Rapper? @Gina: You could probably make the God of Peace story mean whatever you want if you tried. :D
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 459 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 65470964 07-13-2012 07:22 AM :) Yeah, that makes sense. Their intentions are the same in my mind, though their methods differ. As for Johan wanting to erase humanity's identity, he may have been trying to, but I believe that would have happened only if he actually was the last person at the end of the world, and even then, he would have to die in order for it all to fade away. Because he would stand as living proof that humanity existed, both in his memory and in his presence. Also, there's something interesting in that Johan actually remembers these men who he's met and manipulated. He returns to them after years, and though they may be insignificant, it can only have helped their feelings of loyalty and self-worth to have Johan approach them again, just as Tenma remembers his patients and the people he's met along the way. From this, I kind of see it as their identities are in Johan's memory, so it's as if they're dying with their names. And though he effecitely isolates the characters you listed, he isolates others too, just for the sake of manipulating them. And yes, I do believe it was JohanRapper's blog. So, before this discussion, we were discussing how Johan came across The God of Peace and The Nameless Monster, if he and Nina were never apart of the mansion readings, and were never given the opportunity to meet Bonaparta before he came to take one of them away. According to the tape of Johan as a child, brainwashed by Kinderheim 511 workers, it appears as though the interviewer had no idea that Johan was reciting The Nameless Monster. He asked, "Is that from a storybook?". From this, I am starting to doubt that Kinderheim ever featured Bonaparta's works, though it was based off of his research. While one might argue that it may have just been The Nameless Monster that was omitted from the curriculum, I would guess at the very least that the experimenters themselves would be familiar with the story, but it doesn't seem that this is so. We were only ever told that there were lectures, but never specifically "storybooks". In addition, I see no hint of recognition from Grimmer regarding The Nameless Monster. I am now of the mind that either Bonaparta's crew somehow provided Johan with the storybook, or it was given to him directly by Bonaparta, maybe without his mother's knowledge. Perhaps The God of Peace was the same, only Johan decided not to take it with him while on the run. Or, back to that little theory, Nina was read to while in the mansion, and she recited it to Johan when she escaped :D.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 460 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65474576 07-13-2012 12:53 PM The researcher questioning Johan could have just been verifying that that's what he was quoting, or to see how truthful he was being. Like when they ask you basic questions during a polygraph test. Or maybe that particular person wasn't involved in the curriculum (maybe just a doctor given a set of questions to ask, occasionally ad libbing depending on the answers - it's not even clear to me what they were trying to learn, or if it was just part of the brainwashing). If he was that plugged into the program, he should have been familiar with the book if for no other reason than Johan had it with him when they were picked up at the border. If he's trying to delve into Johan's psyche, that kind of seems like an important clue/tool, since the kid was still clinging to it despite all they'd been through. Anyway, I can think of a lot of reasons to ask the questio, even if he recognized it was from the book. As for Grimmer, I'm not sure when he had an opportunity to "recognize" the book, other than just looking through Poppe's works (ie., at what point in the story would you show the reaction you're looking for? I'm not clear on what's missing for you). It was certainly never read to Grimmer, since it wasn't published until 1977 (Big Eyes/Mouth was 1973). But the evidence that there was a storybook program was in Tietze's interview, where rejects from K511 screamed if you tried to read stories to them. If not Bonaparta's books, maybe by this time Weindler was writing stories for them. ;) But since you guys made me clearly realize that K511 really was Bonaparta's project and not just based on his research, I think it would be really odd if they didn't eventually use his books as they were published.
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 461 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65475916 07-14-2012 07:08 AM That is a definite possibility. Didn't think of that. I guess I just personally got the impression that the researcher didn't know of the storybook in question, as, along with his inquiry, he seemed to express confusion when Johan started repeating "Chomp, chomp, munch, munch, gobble, gobble, gulp". But that could just be because he wasn't expecting it :D. But I do agree that it is highly unlikely that the books wouldn't have been featured in Kinderheim 511, I just took the entire interview for face value, which might have been a mistake. In Grimmer's case, I suppose I was looking for a verbal confirmation from him? Something like, "I remember that story...". But, that makes sense that he was never exposed to it, seeing as it wasn't published when he was in Kinderheim. Going quickly back to Toph's post about Johan seeing the end "over and over again", I recall something Tenma said about revenge. He says, in the English translation of the manga, that revenge leads to revenge, and it occurs "over and over again". I know many have speculated that Johan's issue stems from vengeance against Bonaparta, but I've never been sure of this. Is Johan's continuous "end" the product of revenge? Or maybe I'm comparing unrelated things :D.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 462 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65482716 07-14-2012 10:58 AM JohanT wrote: That is a definite possibility. Didn't think of that. I guess I just personally got the impression that the researcher didn't know of the storybook in question, as, along with his inquiry, he seemed to express confusion when Johan started repeating "Chomp, chomp, munch, munch, gobble, gobble, gulp". But that could just be because he wasn't expecting it :D. I had the same impression though. That's why I thought he was just one of their doctors working on a need-to-know basis, asking the general questions he was told to ask while monitoring Johan's physical state. :) He might not have even been told why Johan was important. I've always imagined at least one other person in the room observing the interrogation, perhaps prompting the questioner with off-script (and unheard on the tape) questions as the need arose depending on the answers. That would not prevent the questioner from blurting out his own questions though. Urasawa should release a CD of the whole tape for his next follow up!
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 463 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65483476 07-15-2012 08:42 AM Does anyone know of any good Urasawa interviews where he talks about Monster? I've seen a few of his talks, but they're all focused on his transition from Yawara to Happy!. And then, of course, there's a bit surrounding 20th Century Boys. But surprisingly never Monster...
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 464 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65491846 07-21-2012 11:04 PM I don't. The only ones I know about are the ones people posted here, and he doesn't really go into it. I wish Viz would release the rest of the series, so ANN could run a contest like they did for Natsume, where you submit questions to ask Urasawa for an interview! :) Apropos of nothing, I ran across this clip of Elaine May and Mike Nichols back in their b&w comedy days. Is he not the spitting image of Rudy? :D
abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 465 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 07-22-2012 05:45 AM There are two interviews, one in French (Japan Expo) and one in Spanish. You'll have to use Google translate (unless you know the languages): http://www.guiadelcomic.com/comics/manga/monster.htm http://www.labasesecrete.fr/conference-urasawa-japanexpo2012.php Interesting points: 1) Urasawa inspired himself in "Frankenstein's monster" and "The Fugitive"(1993) to create Monster. 2) He choose Germany because the country is highly related to medicine and has a gothic environment (to the Japanese people's eyes) 3) Since the manga was well received, he added more details/development along the way. 4) not sure of what "no hay ni un solo elemento sobrante en ella para seguir explotando el filón" but I think he's saying that he's completly done with the story and has no plans of continuing it in any form. 5) He says he left "20th Century Boys" and "Monster" endings open, because he asked to himself if a closed ending is a realistic one. He wrote/draw these mangas for seven years and he thought a good ending would be to leave the intrepertation up to the readers. 6) He made Johan super complicated on purpose.
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 466 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 65543692 07-22-2012 08:18 AM @Gina: o_O The resemblance is uncanny. He's got the nose and everything :D. I always thought my dad kind of looked like Rudi, but this guy's a way better likeness. @abeiramar: Thanks for posting them! You know, I had briefly considered The Fugitive as a parallel to Monster where plot was concerned, but I see now that it was somewhat intentional. Naturally, Frankenstein's Monster makes sense. I've been reading Fathers and Sons by Ivan Turgenev, and the themes, while not very similar to Monster's, gave me some ideas on the overall perspective Urasawa may be trying to cultivate within some of his characters. Specifically, I think certain similarities can be seen within Bonaparta's character and Bazarov's. Interestingly enough, the woman Bazarov falls in love with is named Anna :). Once I finish the book, I'll write a bit more on my findings.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 467 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 65543692 07-22-2012 12:29 PM Yay, you're back! I was wondering where everyone went after that flurry of discussion! :) Thanks for posting those interviews! 4) That's pretty much what he's saying. I'd translate it as "Due to this, I've been expanding on the work. And I have also been developing the plot, which extends the story, but I assure you there is not one extra element in it to continue exploiting that vein." In other words, he just doesn't see anything to tap that he hasn't already worked over to his satisfaction. :( We should definitely get him the CD of Johan's tape idea... >.> Favorite line from that interview: But when a German journalist came to interview me and I explained the story, he looked at me as if to say "You aren't serious, right? To hell with the Japanese, what a distorted picture of us they have..." :-D The French conference was cool too. Asked to prove he was Naoki Urasawa, he drew Kenji from 20th C.B. :D And the video of him drawing various characters was fun. I remember a few years ago posting on a message board somewhere how Monster was like The Fugitive, and got blasted for the comparison. I feel vindicated now. :)
awonderfulname Posts: 20 Registered: 06-02-2012 Message 468 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65544924 07-22-2012 04:31 PM Bahah, I'm still here, too! I just... don't know what to say. :P I am a huge chatterbox, but the characters I want to talk about right now and the stuff I want to ramble on isn't specifically related to anything being discussed at the moment, so I just am keeping quiet...
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 469 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to awonderfulname - Message ID#: 65546546 07-22-2012 05:19 PM Well, talk about them! All it needs is someone to kickstart it and we'll chime in. :) If it's Monster related (esp. AM, of course), it's on topic. Ok, 3, 2, 1...Let's jam!
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 470 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65546736 07-25-2012 06:18 PM So, I was going to write about the similarities between Bazarov and Bonaparta, but I think I'll just leave that for my livejournal. It's not really something that can be discussed, anyways :D. But I was writing about the appearance of fire in Monster, and I just re-read some of the discussion a few pages back where people speculated about the fires described in the three frogs. I definitely agree with the person who said that there was only one fire, but different accounts of it. The number of weeks that Nina was present in the Red Rose Mansion is never specified, and it seems that once she returned, Johan made plans to set the Three Frogs ablaze. Once he did, Nina was safely out of the way, awaiting him, while he waited inside the Three Frogs, for someone to come and rescue him. In my opinion, I think Johan might have been attempting to alert his mother. While burning the Three Frogs could be interpreted as destroying the remnants of his mother's choice, I think Johan waited to be rescued in order to indicate , if she ever came calling (with her memories intact), that he and Nina were still alive. The people who had participated in the rescue had a clear memory of saving the child, and thus would have been able to provide Jomama with the information she needed, if she wanted to search for her children. While I don't believe Johan wanted his mother to find him, necessarily, perhaps he believed he would one day confront her about her choice. With the fact that Johan took Nina's memories of the Red Rose Mansion, and with the fact that Johan may believe that his mother meant to send him, he may actually be trying to put the mother in contact with Nina in the future, as Johan would have essentially been in Bonaparta's mansion. An additional theory could revolve around Bonaparta. Nina never relayed the whole story to Johan, specifically the part about Bonaparta letting her go free. Because of this, Johan would think that Nina escaped Bonaparta's clutches, and that he might be searching for her, or expect her to be dead. The fire could have been Johan's way of telling Bonaparta that he was still alive, but also making sure that the people who rescued him only recognized that there was one child, and not two. It could have been to protect Nina. Specifically, if Bonaparta came with questions, he would not get any confirmation that Nina ever returned to her brother. Thus, Nina was as good as dead to him, and he would have no reason to search for her. But this kind of contradicts Johan absorbing Nina's memories for his own, though that process could have occured a bit later. As has been suggested many times, Johan, before he was officially called "Johan", may have just been killing his caretakers to make sure that none of them could betray him or Nina. The betrayal of his mother may have spurred this. Just a few ideas here and there. What I am curious about is whether Johan was dressed as a boy or a girl when he was rescued. It seems like he was dressed as a boy, seeing as the panel shows a boy's shorts and a girl's skirt.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 471 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65572166 07-26-2012 07:32 PM JohanT wrote: Specifically, if Bonaparta came with questions, he would not get any confirmation that Nina ever returned to her brother. Thus, Nina was as good as dead to him, and he would have no reason to search for her. I can't think of any objections to this theory. :) And it would fit with him being dressed as a boy when they fled. You got me re-reading some of those posts, and it occurred to me to wonder when Bonaparta realized which twin he had? :D If Johan didn't already have the book, and Bonaparta left it with him when he took away mother and child, which twin did he think he was leaving the book with? And would it matter to him either way?
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 472 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65581732 07-27-2012 07:21 AM Hmmm, good question. I can hardly imagine them neglecting to give Nina some sort of bath :D. She was too well kempt at the time of the massacre for me to believe they skipped around basic necessities. As such, they were probably aware at that point that she was the girl twin. In my opinion, I don't think Bonaparta's experiment involving the twins was only geared towards one of them. I can't see him caring which twin he took with him to the Red Rose Mansion, and which twin he left behind. Both would end up abandoned by their mother, and while the twin in the mansion would be subjected to an experiment conducted personally by Bonaparta, the twin in the Three Frogs would be subjected to a different experiment, one involving The Nameless Monster. I see it as a dual procedure, and I believe Bonaparta had initially planned on releasing the captured twin from its confines, so that it could take with it experiences to share with the other twin, while the other twin would be brainwashed by the storybook. He simply had a change of heart in the end, and decided to kill those who participated in the experiment. I wonder if Bonaparta planned for Nina to see the massacre...I don't think he did. She was released, so that all the experimenters could see her, but I don't believe Bonaparta intended for it. EDIT: Ok, my fire analysis is finished for anyone who's interested. I'll be re-writing and adding some parts in the future http://johant.livejournal.com/1779.html And I don't know why I'm just noticing this now, but it seems like Karl Schuwald's mother, Margot Langer (Helenka Novakova), was somehow involved with Johan's underground bank. It says that before she left for retirement in 1992, she was involved with the bank, which started around 1990-1991. And then she lived with a young man of 18 years of age (presumably Johan) who reminded her of Jomama, and she apparently lived with him until her death on 11/2/1995, as her letter, sent 3 months before her murder, spoke of the young man she had met. So, she was basically living with Johan for around 2 years. Her death, though also involving Schuwald, could also have been to gain information on his mother, and to silence her about the bank's doings.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 473 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65584996 08-04-2012 11:57 AM JohanT wrote: And I don't know why I'm just noticing this now, but it seems like Karl Schuwald's mother, Margot Langer (Helenka Novakova), was somehow involved with Johan's underground bank. It says that before she left for retirement in 1992, she was involved with the bank, which started around 1990-1991. And then she lived with a young man of 18 years of age (presumably Johan) who reminded her of Jomama, and she apparently lived with him until her death on 11/2/1995, as her letter, sent 3 months before her murder, spoke of the young man she had met. So, she was basically living with Johan for around 2 years. Her death, though also involving Schuwald, could also have been to gain information on his mother, and to silence her about the bank's doings. The thing that's always bothered me about that timeline is that it seems like he was living with Helenka at the same time he was supposed to be living with the second Lieberts. Did he just get them to take him in as their son and then run off to live with her, visiting them on the occasional weekend to keep them on the hook?
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 474 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65655572 08-06-2012 07:20 AM I think so. Also, as Johan started his bank when he was around 15 years old, and then ended it when he was around 20, it would make sense that he did not always stay with the Lieberts, as the man who was head of the underground bank was said to move from place to place as he gave orders. I think the Lieberts were around to, first of all, give him a location close to Schuwald, and also to verify his identity if there was ever a need for it. I don't think people were aware that the couple had a son, so Johan not being around much would fit into that. I'm actually working on a timeline right now, so I'll try and suss out the details of Johan's doings over the years.
TophBeiFong Posts: 145 Registered: 09-05-2011 Message 475 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 65474576 08-09-2012 10:44 PM Sorry I haven't been discussing things here. It's just...BAH TUMBLR!!! ::mad:: :-p Plus, I have college coming up in a little over a week. @_@ @JohanT: Well, I guess we can say that our views aren't that much different, only that I guess I take a more nuanced view in that Tenma actually cares about humanity and intends to be helpful and Johan doesn't. We could keep discussing this for pages and I think it's best to focus on other things. :P *is exhausted by discussion* You know, I'mma just put this snippet from the Kinderheim chapter here for future purposes since I always reference it so much: — Kicked out? "Yes, they were apparently not 'suited' for whatever the purpose was... But they were all emotionless and shut off from anyone else. Their faces were continually frightened... the only human reactions we could see was when someone would begin reading a book aloud. Then they would scream and cover their ears." It seems likely that someone read Bonaparta's books there. Question answered. @wonderful: What did you want to talk about? I wanted to know. :/ @People here in general: You're all brilliant/awesome as always. ^_^
plumbroth Posts: 1 Registered: 08-16-2012 Message 476 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 08-16-2012 11:45 AM Hello, in "Another Monster" were some untranslated news articles in German. I didn't see any existing translations of them so I got my wife to start translating them. She wants readers to note that she is not fluent in German and stopped studying it some years ago, so any corrections/help is very welcomed. Also if you happen to have better images for the articles or anything like that. Original article: http://i46.tinypic.com/jqoxnq.png ("Brutaler Mord an 3 Mitarbeitern der St. Ursula Klinik") ------------------------------------------------------------ Brutal murder of 3 employees of the St. Ursula clinic "Mission accomplished!", a puzzling message from the culprit, who committed suicide. The culprit seems to be the "Axe murderer" Kottman! Early yesterday morning, the doctor Ernst Lerner, employee Hanna Ruplechter, as well as the nurse Rosmarie Berg were brutally murdered at the St Ursula clinic in Nonnberg, Salzburg. The culprit took his own life after the deed. The police explain that early yesterday at 01:05, the culprit intruded through the ambulance entrance. There he killed the employee Hanna Ruplechter with an axe, [knocked over?] medicinal assistant Paul Hosch who was nearby, and then went on to the staff room [... text cuts off ...] There he attacked doctor Ernst Lerner and nurse Rosmarie Berg with the axe and killed both. Hosch, who had been able to escape outside, contacted the police through a phone booth. When two officers from the Salzburg police came to the scene, the culprit cut his own carotid artery with the axe and thus committed suicide, after spouting out confused messages [not quite sure about this???]. [I think this means: "Hosch only received light injuries and needs one week of treatment."] The police investigation showed that the culprit was Gustav Kottman [age cut off], who was lacking a permanent residence and unemployed. Kottman [cut off] suspicious, that he within five years has murdered seven persons. He was ["z... Fahndung ausgeschrieben"]. At the moment, the police [something about "closer examination" - "Derzeitig stellt die Polizei genauere Nachforschungen üb..."].
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 477 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to plumbroth - Message ID#: 65759670 08-17-2012 10:52 AM Welcome to the boards! I have bigger pictures for some of them, but even though they're a little clearer, I don't see anything (yet) that you can make out in the bigger image that you can't in the smaller one. If you find one that's too small to read, or gets too fuzzy when enlarged to read, let me know what page it's on and I'll shoot you a better copy, if it exists. :) Meanwhile, here's the translation I was talking about of Nina's email from Johan in the anime. :)
0bludagengs Posts: 2 Registered: 08-21-2012 Message 478 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65766814 08-21-2012 03:17 AM thank you for informing me about those rules. wasn't aware, sorry... hi to all again. :-) glad to read various insights on Monster / Another Monster. a good refresher for me, since i haven't read it for a while now.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 479 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65766814 08-21-2012 10:49 PM ANN posted a brief interview with Naoki Urasawa today. It's very short, but fun. I didn't know he was doing more Master Keaton! Yay!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 480 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to 0bludagengs - Message ID#: 65801074 08-22-2012 10:08 AM Welcome! Could you explain your screen name? I get the Obluda reference, but I'm curious about "gengs."
0bludagengs Posts: 2 Registered: 08-21-2012 Message 481 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 65810184 08-23-2012 10:40 AM oh. that's my shorthand for Gengar: a ghost- type pocket "monster" (pokemon). no pun intended. one of my personal favorite pokemon because of its ability to curse. (and it seemed to me that Johan left a curse upon whoever he met.) anyway, i've been using that name in the net for almost five years now.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 482 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to 0bludagengs - Message ID#: 65820000 10-18-2012 09:53 PM Dunno if anyone will ever read this anymore, but I just watched episode 284 of Naruto Shippuden (so small spoilers here I guess) and Danzo just gave young Sai a little spiel about how he made him suppress his emotions from childhood, so all that pent-up emotion would make him super powerful when he released it. Does this sound familiar? :D I don't know when the manga chapter that was based on came out, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't ten years ago. Which leads me to the question: did Kishimoto swipe the idea from Urasawa, or is this some belief in Japanese history or culture? Urasawa presented it as a plot point in an American comic via an East German writer, so that doesn't really give me any clues. Has anyone seen the belief system of Steiner's cult in other real life writings or philosophies?
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 483 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 66313152 10-20-2012 03:08 PM Also, for all you AMV-making people out there, the Monster Without a Name now has an "official" song to use: Namae no nai Kaibutsu by Egoist. :D Although it's the ED for Psycho-Pass (a punning title which sounds so promising), sadly the music doesn't really fit Monster very well, so you'll just have to be extra creative!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 484 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 66325204 12-24-2012 01:05 PM Found this neat picture of the Christmas stalls in Prague that Weber mentions at the beginning of Chapter 28. Don't know how long the link will be good for (the internet is both eternal and transitory), so here's a couple more that might last longer. Prague does indeed look like a fairy tale city. Happy holidays, all you lurkers! :D
abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 485 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 12-27-2012 10:32 AM Hello there! It's been a long time! I and some Monster fans on tumblr have been working on a Monster Wiki: http://obluda.wikia.com/ There's still a lot to do so we welcome everyone's contribution and help very much! I'm currently working on Tenma's article very slowly haha.
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 486 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 66325204 01-22-2013 11:03 AM Hi, it's been a while. My major, while I love it, is pretty time consuming. Anyways, if people are still looking for a confirmation on the translation of those German articles, I could volunteer to translate them whenever I get the time :). I'll need a clearer picture, though, my eyesight is not too great. I remember saying that I would work on a timeline, but I believe some months ago a tumblr poster had already created a rather accurate and well thought-out version, most of which I agree with, so I didn't feel the need to continue on with mine. And abeiramar, I'd be glad to help. Not sure which topic/character I should address, but whichever it is, I may not get to it in a timely fashion, but I will get to it eventually :). So, the reason I am popping in is because dear old Geidlitz happened upon me in reality. Saw a man eating fruit just the way that he did. So, fruit is what I am going to address here. The serpent tempted Eve with the forbidden fruit, and once she had tasted it, she had sinned, had cast sin upon the future of the human race, and had been banished from Eden. In Geidlitz's chapter, he regularly interrupts his own musings on Johan's perfection and duty to his cause in order to offer Nina some fruit. Even while Nina is in her assigned room, once Geidlitz has finished giving her the rundown of his plan, he still sends one of his men up, to offer her this fruit. Fruit from his table. There really is no necessary, plot-centric significance in this tic of Geidlitz's, which is why its repetition is attention-grabbing. Each time the fruit is offered, Nina politely declines, but yet again, the fruit is offerred. A homeage to classic temptation? The serpent is relentless. Geidlitz's purpose for Nina is to lure Johan to the organization, but before you tempt Adam, you must first tempt Eve, for it is then she who must tempt Adam, as the biblical counterpart suggests. Before Nina is used as bait for Johan, she must first be baited. The serpent is relatively synonymous with the dragon, both are mythological and visual (reptilian) figures directly traced back to the all-encompassing Devil. Geidlitz is quite the unsuccessful dragon, unable to cajole even the human, and utterly failing at enticing the beast, whose power he had a hand in recognizing.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 487 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to JohanT - Message ID#: 67146313 01-30-2013 07:23 PM Hey, welcome back! :D I haven't abandoned this thread, but sometimes it takes me awhile to notice new posts when there haven't been any for awhile. I don't think I have any clearer pics, but unless it looks to you from what you can see like there's something unexpected or very interesting in the articles, I'm personally content to assume they contain what the captions imply. :) Although sometimes that's so not the case, like when they just grab some text and throw it up there (e.g., in Cowboy Bebop, a newspaper clipping, purportedly about Wen the harmonica boy, was in fact a story about an actual mafia godfather named Vincent Gigante; and in the ED for The Unlimited, some of the dossiers shown are actually Beatles lyrics). I like your interpretation of the fruit. I thought it was just for illustrative purposes to solidify the idea that there were four people we needed to be looking out for (since it took over 2/3 of the series to identify the 4th one), but you're right, he does seem rather insistent that she eat it. :) But he did succeed in enticing the beast...and it ate him.
jedibow Posts: 1 Registered: 02-03-2013 Message 488 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 67213129 02-04-2013 10:54 AM Gina, Thank you so much for completing the translation! I have a couple ideas that I'm thinking about right now, so far I understand pretty much the history on Johan's father, however what I found very interesting was the fact that Lipsky's mother had the same talent as Muraska (sp?) who was supposed to be Johan's and Nina's mother. This is backed by the fact that the tale of the Sleeping monster states that the older brother (Lipsky?) was very concerned that his new brother and sister would turn out to be monsters, however in the end he was relieved because he found out that he himself was a monster. It also states in Lipsky's testamony that Bonaparte had a harder time dealing with his "superior" Children. What if the reason Lipsky didn't have to return the red rose mansion because he himself was already able to tell his own stories? In Monster when he was making his plays they "left a bad after taste," prior to meeting with Nina. It is also stated in the last chapter that Fuhr meet Johan outside the red rose mansion after Johan set fire to it, and this freed him to be who he was, the only person that constantly returned to the red rose mansion was Lipsky. As far as Anna, I believe that all four are actually the same person. Part on my reasoning is above, however I also believe that at the point she was at the university Bonaparte had already located her, and taken her name, thus she was much like Johan in that she didn't know her name. In the love letter he apologizes for taking her name, and finally gives her back her name. At the end of Monster when Tenma is visting with her, her mental state seems to be in question. Almost as if she couldn't entirely remember her past. This leads me to my final thought. I believe that the final sketch is of Johan, without a doubt. Now in the short story of "Awakening the monster" what if Tenma was the young boys character, and Johan is the Monster? Now throughout the story Tenma, along with many others call Johan by the wrong name, but when Tenma tells Johan that he has spoken with his mother and that she gave him a name he suddenly wakes up, and vanishes. We are unsure of the time frame between when Johan is shot, and when Tenma visits him in the hospital after visiting with his mother, but I would like to point out that Tenma has completed the surgury and joined the Doctors without boarders, Johan has completely heeled, Nina has gone back to school, written a thesis, and about to graduate, and Tenma has been gone long enough for Dieter and Nina to miss him enough to drop everything to go and see him. How long do you think this would take? Is it possible that the entire "Another monster" story takes place after Johan is shot, prior to Johan waking in the hospital? This is all I have for now I will jump back on tonight as I have one more Idea of the connection between Johan, Bonaparte and Lipsky. George
JohanT Posts: 70 Registered: 12-10-2011 Message 489 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to jedibow - Message ID#: 67247801 02-10-2013 08:16 AM @Gina: Ate him in place of the fruit? :) Yes, it does seem like that. Funny how the beast performs an act which would earn God's approval, while Adam and Eve clearly subject themselves willingly to inferiority under the perceived superiority of the Devil. I have no idea if it holds anything of major importance, as I believe the significance of the article does not rest within fine print, but within the actual Another Monster storyline. So, translating it further would just be to satisfy curiosities :). I think that I am pretty content in both respects, though. @George: It's Maruska, by the way :D. You bring up a lot of interesting conclusions, many which I would like to address in entirety, but I'm afraid I'll have to get back to you on them. Welcome, though :).
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 490 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to jedibow - Message ID#: 67247801 03-16-2013 03:26 PM I'm so bad! Finally getting a chance to reply to this with my full attention. :) jedibow wrote: I have a couple ideas that I'm thinking about right now, so far I understand pretty much the history on Johan's father, however what I found very interesting was the fact that Lipsky's mother had the same talent as Muraska (sp?) who was supposed to be Johan's and Nina's mother. This is backed by the fact that the tale of the Sleeping monster states that the older brother (Lipsky?) was very concerned that his new brother and sister would turn out to be monsters, however in the end he was relieved because he found out that he himself was a monster. It also states in Lipsky's testamony that Bonaparte had a harder time dealing with his "superior" Children. What if the reason Lipsky didn't have to return the red rose mansion because he himself was already able to tell his own stories? In Monster when he was making his plays they "left a bad after taste," prior to meeting with Nina. It is also stated in the last chapter that Fuhr meet Johan outside the red rose mansion after Johan set fire to it, and this freed him to be who he was, the only person that constantly returned to the red rose mansion was Lipsky. That's an interesting comparison between Maruska and Mama Lipsky. My impression was that Ms. Lipsky was actually better at the transformation than Mariska was though, changing her whole body and not just her voice. When Lipsky said Bonaparta had a "harder time" with the superior children, I took that to mean that he had a harder time just finding suitable ones who could create their own stories, rather than having a hard time dealing with them. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the story. For one thing, that's not the Sleeping Monster story (that one was about the villagers who sought the monster to return their memories, and was by Führ), and for two, it was apparently Bonaparta's story, which he pitched to his editor (I suppose he could have plagiarized it). And Lipsky himself says the reason he was sent home was because he couldn't create his own stories (the ones he created for his puppets weren't really Bonaparta style, even if they didn't have happy endings). jedibow wrote: As far as Anna, I believe that all four are actually the same person. Part on my reasoning is above... Wait, are you suggesting that Lipsky's mother is Anna? And that Lipsky is the twins' older brother? He is their half-cousin (or maybe uncle?), but his mother died 20 years ago (from 2001) when Lipsky (who is 39) was 19. That would make his mother at least 35, and more probably around 45, twenty years prior. jedibow wrote: Is it possible that the entire "Another monster" story takes place after Johan is shot, prior to Johan waking in the hospital? Weber says, "After three years, she and Tenma both returned to society." That would put the end of the anime and the end of the novel at about the same time. So yes, it's possible. Which is one reason why I don't think the sketch is Johan. >:) Even Johan wouldn't be bounding out of bed running around the Czech Republic after 3 years in a coma. ;) At least not in reality. In fiction though, who knows - he's magical!
FrankStein Posts: 4 Registered: 04-14-2013 Message 491 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 67553317 04-14-2013 04:44 PM Hello everyone and sorry 'bout my grammar; I'm not a native speaker! Just registered on adultswim so I could take part in this fascinating discussion. Monster is kind of old friend of mine which I re-read time to time. Thoughts it have provoked in me i've kept to myself... until now. ;) I've read this whole thread, and there's something I don't think anyone has mentioned. Maybe it's because this discussion approaches Monster from the point of view of Another Monster book (I have read only chapters 1-19 FYI), or it's just nobody has thought to mention it. I'm referring on the first volume of Monster Manga, where Tenma tells a STORY to Johan. And it's it's just the kind of story Johan has heard so many times before. It goes like this : There was a doctor who was celebrated by all. The doctor was very much in love in the hospital directors daughter, and by demonsrating his skills to the hospital director he won the hand of his daughter and prestigious position in the hospital. However one day a man was brought to the hospital and he was dying. As the doctor prepared to save the mans life, but the hospital director ordered thet doctor to save the life of another man who was brought in a little bit later. Listening to the director the doctor proceeded to do just that. The man who was brought in first died. The doctor saved the life of the second one. The doctor did not think too much about this until next day when he met the wife of the dead man. The wife asked the doctor to bring his husband back to life, but that was beyond the doctor. Later the doctor asked directors daughter why the first man had to die, and the second one got to live. Directors wife answered him : "After all, all people's lives aren't created egual". The doctor was devastated. Later that night the doctor was called to the hospital. A boy who was dying was just brought in and he needed the doctor to save his life. As the doctor was preparing to do just that, the mayor of the town was brought in aswell. The director ordered doctor to save the life of the mayor instead, alltough the boy was brought in first. This time the doctor however chose to save the patient that came in first, because he could not just believe what his fiancee had told him. ALL LIVES ARE CREATED EQUAL, he thought and saved the boy. However the mayor died, and because the doctor disoboyed the director he was shunned. He was no longer celebrated, and he lost his fiancee. Alltough the doctor had saved the boy, he lost all that was dear to him. -- Doesn't that sound very much like The Man with Big Eyes and The Man with the Big Mouth? I'm convinced that this is the kind of story Tenma told Johan. Just check chapter three of manga; It's not expressly shown, but we can observe Tenma going to Johans hospital bed, and in next page the first words we see him say are :"Ha Ha Ha ... Isn't that a funny story?". It's guite easy to deduce that he spilled his guts to Johan. He then proceeds to tell Johan that his boss is "nothing but a greedy money-monger" and would be "better off dead". Oops. So to finally make my point which is Victor Frankenstein and his Monster. Not only was Johan creation of Bonaparta, he was creation of Tenma. Bonaparta laid out the ground work, and Tenma was unfortunate enough to pull just the right(wrong) levers and so woke the monster. Now that the monster has two fathers, what will it do? Like other people on this thread, I seem to suffer from common malady; I have so much to say about the subject matter, that it's hard to organize everything to letters and words - let alone sentences. I wan't to write about Bonaparta next, but need to organize my thoughts first. ^_-
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 492 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to FrankStein - Message ID#: 67763661 04-14-2013 07:23 PM Welcome to the thread! :D I don't have time to do your post justice at the moment, but I just wanted to point out that in the manga "Isn't that an awfully funny story?" are not his first words on the page, since it's read right to left. First he laughs "Hahaha" miserably, then procedes to tell how he came to Germany to be a doctor, thinking Heinemann's paper was written by Heinemann, only to finally realize it almost certainly was not. That's the funny story he's referring to. But it's very possible that we're coming in on the tail end of the funny story. We can only speculate how much detail he went into before that scene. But you brought up something interesting that I'll be back to talk about more when I can. Thanks! ^.^
FrankStein Posts: 4 Registered: 04-14-2013 Message 493 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 67765207 04-15-2013 04:57 AM I'll stick to my guns for a while yet. ^_^ The copy I'm reading is the VIZ signature edition, and "isn't that awfully funny story?" are definitely Tenmas first words to Johan, right after he laughs (ha ha ha ...). After that, he does proceed to tell Johan about how he came to germany, etc. Would he not say something like "Hey, listen to THIS funny story", if the story he's referring is the later. However consider what Tenma has just gone trough, It's absolutely belieavable that Johan is the one Tenma spills his beans to. Were Johan to be clearly not in coma at the time, Tenma would propably kept his mouth shut; Now he's just the right sounding board for the man. The propable thing is that I'm reading way too much into this. It's just that I find Tenma to be in a damned if I do/damned if I don't situation in the beginning of the story, and might have given Johan even bigger reason to think him as Father, than just saving his life. Consider the second time Johan is in coma. Who's there by his bed, telling a story (I met your mom, you have a name etc)? Somebody on this board mentioned that it was almost like just hearing Tenmas voice would wake Johan up, And to that I tend to agree. btw. Has anyone read the "The Science of Discworld III"? There's somethings in it about stories that I find to be an very interesting tangent to this particular one. The book deposits that we are not *squee* Sapiens, but more like Pan Narrans (Storytelling chimpanzee). We tell small stories to ourselves (Today is goin to be a good day, there will be no rain) and to each others (I will be there at 5 PM). Bigger, more important stories that are also false but help us get to truth (The atom is kind of like a miniature solar system; Shut the door, you'll let the cold in). Stories are the vector that spreads memes, and the kind of stories we read defines our collective extelligence. The most important story in the books narrative is Midsummer Nights Dream, cause it inspired humanity to, at the same time, to regognize a story for what it is, and yet to believe in the message.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 494 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to FrankStein - Message ID#: 67767769 04-16-2013 07:54 PM Quick note to condede your reading. I've been doing too many Excel sheets lately I guess. :D This is why I rarely read manga, I can never figure out what's going on or what I'm looking at. :/ This week at work is absolutely batcrap insane, so I might not get my comments up before the weekend, so have patience! :)
FrankStein Posts: 4 Registered: 04-14-2013 Message 495 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 67780355 04-18-2013 11:11 AM There are good guys in Monster and there are bad guys. Some fall into darkness, and others redeem themself against impossible odds. For some you feel symphaty, hatred, or even pity. Only thing I feel for Klaus Poppe is loathing. He has not redeemed himself even an single time during his worthless life, nay he has not even considered it. Every thing he did, that had some positive consequences, he did for selfish reasons alone. Every tear he shed trough his life, he shed only for himself. Poppe was born roughly in 1930 in Chezh republic. Not much is known from his early childhood, but we can assume he showed signs of a genius from early age (no doutebtly inherited from his fathers side). After the second world war, Poppe family remained in what was then Czechoslovakia. His father would actually had very good change to become head of the goverment, save for his german background. Sometime between 1948 and 1950 Klaus brainwashed his father to the point the old man could not recall even his own name. Poppe left his hometown in 1950, never to return. the departure also signaled his rapid rise in the party hierarchy (the information he squeezed from older Poppes head must have been useful). In 50's Poppe was very busy man. Not only we know he achieved three doctorates(?) from university, it is quite possible that Poppe was the student who drove west german town of Zweifelstadt into mass murder in 1958. Consider the the show, it's also a very striking coincidence that a young man from east germany is involved in writing "The Magnificent Steiner" for TV adaption in 1958 to 1959. A young man who is also of great interest to FBI. I can just imagine the conversation :     FBI man 1# : Yeah, I know, i know! The man's a spy but whats he's REALLY doing.     FBI man 2# : This screenwriter to childrens television stuff is so obviously a cover.     FBI man 1# : Let's just keep following him. When he does something illegal, we nab him. In late fifties Poppe gets married, that union resulting to a son. Poppe could not leg it any faster. It's 60's and Poppe starts to build. Kinderheim 511, RMM and what else. He is a bully, tearing wings of butterflies and watching them suffer. He takes great joy of every new dicovery, no matter how horrid. Where the party elite want super soldiers, leaders, maybe a new stalin or two it's not what Poppe wants for himself. I think he just wanted to see how far he could go. Then he falls in some kind of perverted love, and in the end does what becomes so natural - legs it. I think he didn't cafe for the children as persons at all, just as jewels that are his to grind. The love what he showed for Anna/Vierna was to take away her name and children. In the end we find him hiding, still experimenting (I really think Wim was just a lab rat for him). He keeps painting his jewels. Like a true sociopath, he thinks it's justice that he keeps himself hidden from world when it's exactly opposite that he should be doin (like grimmer kindly points it out to him) : climb the tallest mountain and shout out your cimes for everyone to hear. Grimmer dies and we see Poppe give out a wail - for himself. I see him reacting to Grimmers words, even having a fighting change to regognize that world does not revolve around him but he cries out of the terror that the very idea beholds. Had he truly felt any remorse, he would not done what comes next. He takes a gun and goes to Johan. "Let us die, Let us die together", he says. Mr Klaus Poppe, the thing you learned from life is that murder/suicide is THE answer; You don't deserve death until you confront your life. Unfortulately life is not about "fair", so a pistol round carves a fatal cavity trough the mans neck. -Fixed some grammar, not all though ^_-
FrankStein Posts: 4 Registered: 04-14-2013 Message 496 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to FrankStein - Message ID#: 67791781 04-18-2013 12:10 PM Writing about poppe made me feel dirty, so here's something more positive. ^_^ I want to introduce you all the true hero of Monster. While there were many, many people who did the right thing, the Hero of our story is just a single man who is not paid respect he deserves to. Without this man, the whirlwind that almost consumed all, would not have been stopped. This is the man who slayed the dragon. Everyone, meet Herbet Knaup, 38 years old, unemployed. He likes to drink to an extent, that many would call him alcoholic. He is ridiculed by the townfolk. He beats his son, and steals money from him to buy alcohol. He is given an pistol by agents of Johan, but he does not use it in any way even though he does not lack opportunities. Drunken he shuffles trough nightmarelike Ruhenheim until, he sees Johan threaten Wim, Herbert's son, with a gun. He reacts immediately to protect his son, so doing wounds Johan in the head. What follows is very important. Here Tenma is, sitting next to Nina. His long journey finally come to pass, and he did not have to kill Johan after all! He's so tired but all is finally well; And all is well - except Wim loves his father very much, no matter how bad a father he is. And Wims father is not a murderer. As police are taking Herbert to be arrested Wim yells so "Daddys...Daddy's not a murderer"! Tenma is right next to him, and after some very short convincing from Nina Tenma decides to operate on Johan once again. Thus not only trough Herbert Knaups actions is Johan stopped, Tenma is offered a kind of personal redemption in saving a life, saving man from killing a person and personally forgiving Johan. I give you applaudes mr Knaup! Now get sobered up, get a job and start providing for your son. Also apologize for him, else you feel the back of my hand. ^_^ -- Edit. Fixed some sentence structure.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 497 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to FrankStein - Message ID#: 67763661 04-28-2013 08:56 PM Sorry it took me so long. I don't think I have enough to say to make it worth the wait. :( Considering how drunk Tenma was when he came to see Johan, I can imagine him pouring out his heart to him, although he probably didn't do so in "fairy tale" form. :) But I see no reason to put any blame on his shoulders for creating Johan. He was already a monster by the time he came under Tenma's care. I mean, just remember why he was there! I think he killed Tenma's "enemies" because he was grateful to Tenma and felt those people weren't needed in the world. What I do think Tenma inadvertently set in motion by telling him his story was making himself an object of Johan's fascination and planting the seed of his later judgement that Tenma was someone worthy of seeing the Landscape of the End. Had Tenma not done that, Johan would probably just have escaped with Nina and put the whole hospital experience behind him. So I suppose you could say Tenma was somewhat of a cause of those three murders, but not in any direct sort of way. But what I really liked about your post was the observation that Tenma's story was like Faroubek's Big Mouth/Eyes story. I had never thought of it that way before, since the stories are really very different. Faroubek's protagonists choose both sides of the deal, and yet both end up unhappy, showing that, like in War Games, the only way to win was not to play...except you can't say they were in any better shape before they made the deal, so even not playing they wouldn't have won. On the other hand, Tenma lost everything (at that time) for doing what he thought was right (making a deal with fate: If I follow my beliefs, everything should turn out well, but it didn't), but if he had not, he would have gained a great deal by simply following orders. So it seems like he gets a choice where he could win, whereas Faroubek's guys did not. But in fact the only way Tenma could have won was if he followed his beliefs AND the Mayor hadn't died. So I guess this is where the two stories mesh: The man with the big mouth got what he wanted but it didn't last, which is probably where Tenma would have ended up if he'd followed orders, i.e., rich and miserable, and the man with the big eyes was miserable and wished he'd made a deal, which is sort of, but not quite where Tenma did end up - and of course 9 years later, his own garden bloomed and he got back everything he'd lost, except Eva, which was another plus. :) You know what I just realized after re-reading the story? It ends with: “I should have made a deal with the demon.” “Let’s make make a deal! Let’s make a deal!” said the demon. Who is the demon speaking to? I think the man with the big eyes ended up making a deal too because he would have starved to death then instead of later if he did not. o.o
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 498 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to FrankStein - Message ID#: 67791781 04-28-2013 09:08 PM FrankStein wrote: In 50's Poppe was very busy man. Not only we know he achieved three doctorates(?) from university, it is quite possible that Poppe was the student who drove west german town of Zweifelstadt into mass murder in 1958. Consider the the show, it's also a very striking coincidence that a young man from east germany is involved in writing "The Magnificent Steiner" for TV adaption in 1958 to 1959. A young man who is also of great interest to FBI. Yeah, we joked earlier about how we all wanted Poppe's time stretcher. :) But it sounds like you're suggesting that Poppe was Bargeld, and I don't think that's possible, since he remained in the US until 1964, and Poppe had a lot of things to get done in Europe during that time, like writing up his report to the Czechs and fathering Lipsky. ;) But I'm sure he had his fingers in what Bargeld wrote, in one way or another.
abeiramar Posts: 13 Registered: 06-04-2012 Message 499 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-01-2013 05:49 AM Gina, could you tell me what are the inconsistencies with Another Monster and the manga itself? I'm going to receive the Italian version on Monday and I'd like to check these passages. The italian version is a very recent publication. The Spanish one is out of print now, it was published by Timunmas (not planeta DeAgostini the original spanish Monster publisher wtf). It says on their own wiki page that their translations are not top quality (some angry costumers edited their wikia page I guess http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timunmas ) And I have some good news by the way!, Planeta DeAgostini is going to publish "The Nameless Monster" in November. http://www.koi-nya.net/2013/02/12/finalmente-monster-el-monstruo-sin-nombre-de-naoki-urasawa-llegara-a-espana-en-noviembre/
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 500 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to abeiramar - Message ID#: 68135937 06-01-2013 12:46 PM Cool, an Italian edition! Yay!!! I hadn't heard about that (but I wasn't looking for it. Hmmm, might have to try to buy a copy. I don't see why not speaking Italian should stop me any more than not speaking Japanese did! :D) I have not read the manga past the first English volume, so I can't quite speak to that. I do know there are a number of inconsistencies between the manga and anime and Another Monster regarding dates. I think the easiest thing to do would be to send you the files I have on timelines and maybe you can glean some of the information you're looking for. I updated my timeline, which was based only on what was in AM to add in manga dates that InTheGarden gleaned from the manga. I think it was just manga, but anime might be in there too. But I can't remember anymore which dates I ended up choosing! :) It will be very interesting to see what differences in translations you find in the Italian edition, vs the Spanish and the English (especiallly that crazy passage in Chapek's chapter where he wakes up from a nightmare and reveals crucial info). I'm not surprised that people might've complained about the Spanish translation (didn't see any AM-specific complaints on that wiki page, but I know I found a few even with my pathetic skills - I'm at least sure that anyone who had seen the series would've caught the part about The Baby wearing glasses/or Chapek being short and cherubic!). I'm especially excited to see how the Italian version of Nameless Monster translates that ending section (will that be a Spanish or Italian translation?)! Depending on how different it is from my half-assed attempt, it might be worth an update. Maybe a more accurate translation will shed some light on what's going on there. Maybe I'll wait until November and buy them at the same time. ^.^ 500th post in this thread! Amazing. ;)