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GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 51 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 57577893 12-29-2010 04:45 PM Reread Chapters 16-17 Ah, finally, some insight into the Three Frogs. I guess I had it in my head that Bonaparta put them there for awhile, but apparently it was a friend, and he later found them there. This chapter sort of reconfirms my take that Johann's isolating people was his way of showing his respect or "love" for them. "[Bonaparta's] way of loving [Anna] was to take her name away, erase her memory, and become the only person in the world who recognized her for who she was. This sounds just like Johann." "He wished to remain anonymous...now he is 30...a handsome face...an automotive engineer for the largest industrial company in the Czech Republic." Uh, yeah, no one could possibly figure out who he was. :/ So...for the reading seminars, they were picking children who saw the ten horned Beast in ink blots? oO Ah, "The Door That Must Not Be Opened." I think Bonaparta was wrong that there was no story there. That was a nice little story - and it made more sense than his other ones. :D I wonder why the babies of the survivors of these experiments (i.e., the Mansion and K511) keep dying? It doesn't quite make sense that the babies are essentially committing suicide because one of their parents doesn't love them. It's almost like the very presence of these emotionless fathers is overwhelming their babies and obliterating their will to live. Viral depression? -------adventures in translation-------- ::happy dances:: Finally finished translating Chapter 21! Yay!!! Woohoo!! Two down, ten to go.... At this rate, I might actually finish by this time next year! :D I did have some help near the end of it. Urasawa sure does love him some run-on sentences. Nine commas and an elipse...just too complicated to sort out by myself. Even my native speaker guide was having a little trouble with it (not least because he knows nothing of the story or context). I had to have some kindly provided advice at the end of Chapter 20 as well - Urasawa seems to save the vital and confusing stuff for last. Seriously, if any of the many silent lurkers in this thread are fluent in Japanese, now would be a good time to step up, before I exhaust all his patient good will in dealing with me. :) To give you an idea, this was how Excite.co.jp translated the sentence: Good people did not have regrettably, and when Milan asked whether to have encountered eyes, it it is because of that person completely the head was twisted [he's not the only one...], it had not existed in scary eyes, and is so in 46 however 42 that he had been laughingly scared though pursued a project in place of him me for seven years it after that event before the defection. unpicked at the done time dangerous when defecting Sheesh, even the robot wanted to break it into more than one sentence! :D One odd thing I've noticed is that Google seems to be getting worse at translating things. When I was transcribing a string of katakana and wondered what it said, I ran it through Google and it knew exactly what it was. But later when I entered the entire sentence, not only couldn't it translate it, it couldn't even make a guess, spitting the kana right back at me unchanged, even when I gave it just the kana again. It's also become completely unable to handle numbers. It can't recognize a date anymore, and it reverses the numbers it does translate, so 89 becomes 98, etc. I noticed they made some changes in their interface, but they seem to have made the translation algorhythm even stupider in the process, and I hadn't thought that possible. :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 52 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 58017264 01-03-2011 12:18 AM Been blazing through Finished translating Chapter 22, and finally, finally, have an explanation for the discrepancy in the body count I've been wondering about since the first time I watched Monster. All these years I figured it was probably just an error in the script that no one caught. It never would have occured to me that that's what happened, let alone that it was a key plot point. This casts an entirely different light on Jomama's Sophie's Choice and all the fallout from that via Johann's trauma over it. ::mind reels:: And now I finally know how Chapek escaped being wiped out in Bonaparta's purge. Yay!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 53 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 58078096 01-15-2011 02:54 PM Chapters 18-19 The anime gave the impression (or rather, left it up to the viewer) that Lipsky was in the seminars because Bonaparta picked his own son for it, but it seems that wasn't the case at all. He didn't even know his son was included until he showed up for the reading. How bizarre. Mama Lipsky's backstory was pretty interesting too. No wonder the son was such a creepy guy. He never stood a chance with parents as weird as his. :/ Can't imagine what his new girlfriend is like... o.o Somehow I envision someone like Shelley Duvall. ^.^ Verdemann's father worked for KWFM? Tucson?? :D I don't think so. German radio stations aren't identified that way. Wonder where Urasawa came up with that? Can't say as I understand the story about Verdemann's father's neighbor's wife. Can't tell yet if it matters. :) -------adventures in translation-------- Chapter 23 done, except for one puzzling sentence, though it doesn't seem to be a critical point. And it looks like I'm on my own again. :( Oh well. Getting interesting now, and mostly new information in that chapter, plus a couple of facts unrelated to the story that I never knew before. Educational in unexpected ways! Half of Chapter 24 transcribed. Even without translating it, I can tell pretty much how the conversation is going by the names and places that keep coming up. :)
alucard235 Posts: 19,122 Registered: 08-28-2010 Message 54 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 01-22-2011 11:00 AM I seen the show didn't really care for it the manga........didn't even know there was one
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 55 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to alucard235 - Message ID#: 58379976 02-04-2011 01:40 PM Another Monster isn't a manga. But yeah, like most anime series, Monster was a manga first. Chapter 20: As expected, not much new here besides Martin's last name. Although I did appreciate that even Eva thought she was a fool for opening the door for Martin when she expected it to be Roberto. :) Although I get the impression that more will be said about her email later, it mostly seems to be a chapter to explain how Weber is putting the pieces together. Chapter 21: Looong chapter. Man, even the Turks knew The Baby was an idiot as well as a cheap jerk ("How do you think The Baby became so rich?" "No, he wasn't rich. More like the extreme right wing of beggary."). :) So Čapek was looking for someone else besides Johann... And although I've asked several people about that killer, critical paragraph, where Čapek cryptically talks about the Red Rose massacre, I can't get a definitive answer yet (and it comes up again in Chapter 22 and 26). :/ I think I'm going to have to get the Spanish version to see what that official translation says. Still, I think I'm close enough to the correct translation that I'm seeing the end of Monster in an entirely different light now. o.o And also a good point that if Čapek et al had been planning on installing a perfect füher since 1989 or so, it probably wasn't Johann they were dreaming of then, as he was only about 13. So who was it? Maybe the one boy in the reading circles who could create stories like Bonaparta (Chapter 17)...? And where is he now? -------adventures in translation-------- Back to transcribing. Can't decide whether to just transcribe it all and then translate or do it as I go along. I find I'm faster when I'm doing it all at once, but the tantalizing hints I get are hard to resist stopping to see what it says. :) I'm baffled by the katakana in the chapter about the Magnificent Steiner, and holy hell there is a lot of it! I'm sure the Japanese have words for "hero" and "title" and other such ordinary concepts - why write it in katakana? And why isn't TV just チビ instead of テレビ? Oi. :) The title is written in about five different ways. The chapter title is 超人シュタイナー (Superhuman Steiner) but then a little later it's written 超人スタイナー (the difference between the German and American pronunciation of Steiner?) and then ジ・アメージング・スタイナー (The Amazing Steiner) and then without the ジ and then in the picture captions as ザ・マグニフィセント・スタイナー (The Magnificent Steiner) I really don't get why the change from ジ (zi) to ザ・ (za), unless one is intended to represent German. [looking up something else, I slid into rereading this and just now realized the reason is the difference in pronunciation of "the" before a vowel vs a consonant! Duh! ::slaps forehead::] Since I've seen the katakana for "title" show up a couple of times, I guess they're talking about the evolution of the title (it'll be interesting to see how this is handled since it's written in Japanese about people who, I think, are supposed to be speaking in English about a German translation ^.^) Amusing transbot error: thinking ペンシラー is "Penn Schiller." I'm pretty sure it's "penciler," since they're talking about the production of the comic book. :D Any ideas what レタラー might be? Retailer??
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 56 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 58574330 02-13-2011 10:47 PM Chapter 22 Grimmer's Notebook Lots of new info in this chapter. Pretty funny in parts - I can just see Grimmer doing all these things! :D All done transcribing the text! Yay! Now to translate it! Not sure, but I think Urasawa just inserted himself into the story at the end there... :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 57 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 58730144 03-06-2011 08:06 PM Chapter 23 Hermann Feuer I don't think Feuer was ever mentioned in the anime. Still quite the mystery man. I also can't remember now if The Sleeping Monster story was mentioned in Monster. I don't think it was. It's as strange as all the other ones. One of the fun parts of this is all the stuff I'm learning along the way. I'd never heard of Charles Keeping before, but he's mentioned as though everyone knows who he is. Google him, and find some very disturbing illustrations, in that they're purportedly for children. Also, I never knew there were vineyards within the city of Vienna, nor had heard of "heurigens." The thing is, if I were just reading someone else's translation, I'd probably just go "dunno what that is" and move along. But since I don't even know if I've got the right word or name until I look it up, I learn all this neat stuff. :) Chapter 24 Collapse Wow, Weissbach sure knows a whole lot more than I ever thought he did. I guess he's had to time to study up since the series ended. ;) Also more of Eva's email, which doesn't really shed more light on things. The only new thing in it is that Sievernich also saw the ten horned Beast at K511. Eva's role in this is obviously just to give Weber information so we know how he knows what we already know. And finally! An answer to who the hell that cheery sweater guy was that Johann shot on his way to Ruhenheim! :D One new thing that just occurred to me, which should have crossed my mind years ago, is that Johann and Sievernich must have actively sought out someone like Klemperer to traffic them to West Germany. There's like this big gap in the timeline from when Johann survived K511 and then shows up adopted by the Lieberts in W. Germany. I guess I just had this vague picture of the authorities taking the boys in after the massacre and then they each got adopted, with Johann demanding that Anna come with him, and Christof being illegally brokered like a commodity, after which they both bided their time and made the best of it. But certainly they had it under control the whole time. I'm sure the Lieberts' defection was not just a lucky break for them either. I wonder if Johann manipulated them into taking the leap, or blackmailed them?
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 58 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59017916 04-03-2011 07:57 PM Chapter 25 Ruhenheim Most of what was new in this chapter was about the previous massacre in Zweifelstadt, but that was still interesting, especially the little twist at the end of that story. :) -------adventures in translation-------- I'm getting a little more adventurous in taking liberties with the translation, just to make it read a little more naturally. But in this chapter, there were so many dead blunt declarative sentences (and too many redundant ones) there wasn't a whole lot to do with them. But worse, there are paragraphs that just don't work in English. For example, he's talking about the rain falling harder as the killings start. Now I can see that what he's going for is a visual comparison of the heavy rain and rising waters with the bloodshed and bodies, but I'm sorry, the mixed metaphor of the town "overflowing with a mountain of corpses" just doesn't do it. But I'm sure it's better in Japanese. :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 59 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59420952 04-09-2011 10:26 PM Chapter 26 Nina Fortner a.k.a. Anna Liebert Well, that was a disappointing chapter. Over ten pages and not one new thing. The usual big revelation at the end was something that was obvious four chapters ago. Also, since Weber couldn't get Nina to talk to him, he's supposedly guessing at a lot of what he's laying out, and yet what dialog he produces is literally word for word from the anime script (which made it easier to translate those parts!). I'd think that would come across as kinda of lame even in Japanese... But I'm really looking forward to doing the next chapter. That's going to be fun (and probably difficult) since it looks to be almost all new information. :) -------adventures in translation-------- The God of Peace story was presented in its entirety, that is, up to exactly the same point as it trailed off in the anime. I wanted to know how it ended! It was written with no kanji at all, and therefore was a total mystery to all of the online translators (Google decided that "The God of Peace" was "Getdata no Kagami"). But since it appeared verbatim, I didn't need to rely on them. Just for fun, here's Bablefish's version of the story (Google's version, the real translation) - enjoy! The fence [wa] biting is busy. The God of Peace is always busy. Will not the [chi] bugle is wiped the spare time when stooping is seen without. He is too busy to look in a mirror, and blows his horn every day. The bugle of the fence [wa] biting makes everyone happy. The God of Peace's horn makes everyone happy. The fence [wa] biting is busy. The God of Peace is always busy. It sows at the strange not looking the spare time when stooping is seen without. He is too busy to look in a mirror, and scatters magical water. As for the strange not seeing green and the [ma] you look at the chestnut and the dusting and make ride, are the fungus is made. The magical water creates green mountains, ripens crops, and makes flower gardens grow. (Google sez: Ginamizuhamidorinoyamawotokuri joints, has made a bamboo Minora, and makes your nose is your bamboo.) The [ku] it is and the [wa] biting is busy. The God of Peace is always busy. You acquire before to everyone the spare time when stooping is seen without. He is too busy to look in a mirror, and gives everyone a name. Your before Otto. Your [han] it does before. Your before [tomasu]. Your before Johann. Your name is Otto. Your name is Hans. Your name is Thomas. Your name is Johann. As for Johann me to it is and, the [ji] [bu] it is the [bo] [u] to do, it increased to biting. Johann gave his hat to the god as a gift in return. (Reina Johann in your hair upside gave a hat jackpot. :D) As for biting, joy. The god was very happy. (Our hair is oh joy.) The [bo] [u] it does and the [ji] [bu] which wears it is you wanted to see, it passed for the first time before the stooping. Because he wanted to see himself wearing the hat, he stood in front of a mirror for the first time. So the fact that it moved to stooping is to be the [ma] which is opened. However, what he saw in the mirror was a demon. In stooping the [ma] which is opened said. From inside the mirror, the demon spoke to him. As for you as for me and me you. I am you and you are me. (You are me, I kid.) How it will do, when this the [ma] which opens is, everyone is and the [ku] there is no alligator saddle [se]. How it will do, how it will do. Oh no! No one can live in peace with a demon like this! What should I do? As for the biting which is troubled ...... So the troubled god....
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 60 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59507754 04-18-2011 12:04 AM Chapter 27 The Magnificent Steiner Whew, what a great chapter! I laughed out loud, both at funny things, like the first version of the Steiner story ("It was a really stupid premise. When I look back on it now, its popularity often baffles me."), and in sheer delight. And it also gave me chills in a couple of places. The only disappointment was that they never talked at all about the stereotypes in the cartoon, either to disavow them or just to acknowledge them (edit: now that I think about it, maybe they did address this, albeit in a very oblique manner). Other than that though... the most impressive chapter in the book so far. Grimmer apparently had much more in common with Steiner than just the Hulking out and selective amnesia. No wonder the story resonated so strongly with him as a child. And Urasawa managed to tie it all in with Johann as well. Magnificent!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 61 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59626614 04-28-2011 11:09 PM Chapter 28 Anna Part II Ok, there are a number of sentences in this chapter that I'm pretty sure I don't know what they're really saying, so I can't quite put quit to this one just yet, but I'm done with it for the time being. And wow, I'm kind of dumbstruck, just by the stuff I'm sure of. :) I really don't quite know what to make of it yet. Hopefully, Weber will change his mind in the remaining chapters and tell us what he makes of it. Because as revelations go, there are a couple of real doozies in this chapter. :) -------adventures in translation-------- In order to locate people who knew Anna, Weber published one of Bonaparta's sketches of her in a missing persons ad. At one point, he compares the sketch with a photograph and apparently writes, "It was beautiful. The woman in the sketch and two melons." o.O Now I was pretty darn sure there were no sketches of Anna holding melons, and it seemed a bit rude to be commenting like that on her boobs, or to describe her pregnant belly as a melon, but the kanji for melon was unmistakable and seemed to have no other meaning than melon. I kept digging around until finally I discovered that as it was used in the sentence, it's a metaphor similar to saying the woman in the photo and the one in the sketch were as alike as two peas in a pod...or as two melons. ^.^
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 62 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59770884 05-02-2011 01:53 PM Chapter 29 Klaus Poppe I think it should have been titled Terner Poppe, but... Things be startin' to come together now. Though I'm still not quite seeing how this mystery woman links everyone together...unless... Still, I did not see this coming. I'm going to need a timeline to sort this all out I think. Forgot to mention the revelation of Johann's favorite book. I'm to the point where everything is blending and I can't remember if this question was also slipped into the anime, or only raised earlier in this novel, but at least now I know. :) -------adventures in translation-------- Nothing much, aside from spending way too much time trying to find an actual election in October of 1945-48 in Czechoslovakia (their elections seem to all be in May), when it turned out to just be some unnamed people installing a temporary government. Funny though, how none of the histories I can find say who had and used the authority to set up this government at that time. One character's name is Procházka, but somehow Excite Japan always thinks his name is "professional hearth Fahrenheit." No clue as to what it's keying on to come up with Fahrenheit...
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 63 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59811314 05-03-2011 11:41 AM Chapter 30 Franz Bonaparta Interesting way to go about a summary. Now I need a genealogy diagram... Still not quite seeing how Verdemann figures into this, at least not directly, but Weber seemed pretty excited about the idea. Eight more pages to go... :D -------adventures in translation-------- Although I can follow what he's saying, trying to say it in English is problematic without names to substitute for the pronouns, which would negate how he's chosen to relate the story. Too many "he"s and "she"s, but much too wordy to try to differentiate them with descriptions instead. At one point, Urasawa resorts to calling one guy the "next-town boy," which just sounds silly in English. :) I'm not sure why, but in the next chapter the title of the Sleeping Monster has suddenly changed from the hiragana used in previous chapters to a mix of hiragana and kanji. If there's a significance to that, I can't guess what it is.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 64 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59826410 05-10-2011 12:01 AM Done.
Will1892 Posts: 3 Registered: 05-11-2011 Message 65 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59912144 05-11-2011 11:04 PM Gina, I recently watched the entire Monster anime series and was thrilled. I did a little research on Naoki Urasawa and discovered his sequel "Another Monster". I read the 19 chapters that were translated and now I am desperate for the rest of the story. I have read this entire thread and your commentary on chapters 20-end is nearly torturous :) No matter how unrefined it may be, do you think you might be able to post your translation of the remaining chapters? It would be hugely appreciated. Thanks
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 66 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to Will1892 - Message ID#: 59936710 05-12-2011 12:58 AM ::squints at post:: Waitaminute...I didn't write that... OMG, someone else actually posted in here!!! And on topic!!! I don't think the [as] boards would be pleased with me posting unauthorized translations here. Maybe if you PM me we could figure something out. But I'm not quite ready to show it to anyone yet. I've started rereading through what I've done and found a couple of glaring errors I made the first time around, and expect to find others. I'm also finding the confidence to make it a little less literal and more readable, while trying to remain true to what the author is trying to get across (insofar as I can understand). I'm currently in the process of trying to acquire the authorized Spanish translation from Madrid, which is apparently the only library in the entire world that has it available. Still waiting to hear if they'll interlibrary loan it internationally or not, but they're part of WorldNet, so it seems like they might (not getting my hopes too high though). It does not seem to be available for sale anywhere - though it's listed on many sites, it's never in stock, and according to the publisher (just last month), it never will be because they shut down the imprint that published it. Reading some of the chatter on Spanish forums, it seems like some people bought up hundreds of copies of the book at discount prices, and...are just sitting on them? Selling them on the street corner at a profit? It's like they vanished into thin air. No one who has a copy seems to be putting it up for sale even on used book sites, and even people in Spain are complaining about not being able to find a copy. The point of all that is that there are a handful of passages that even after consulting several native speakers (and getting several different, conflicting opinions on what they say) I'm still not as sure of as I'd like to be. The Spanish version would clear that up. I'm not fluent in Spanish, but I can read it fairly well, and between the two languages, I'm confident I can figure out what it's actually saying. I'm especially interested is seeing how the European names are translated, since the katakana is often difficult to decipher. For example, for a long time I thought one of the place names was Lederheim, but finally figured out they meant Rödelheim, which is an actual place. :) Anyway, it's looking like maybe June to finish finish? Can you hold out that long? ^.^ Thanks for posting! It's really a shot in the arm to know at least a couple other people are interested!
Will1892 Posts: 3 Registered: 05-11-2011 Message 67 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59938012 05-12-2011 09:02 AM I don't understand why more people aren't interested! I also wonder why the original translator quit working on "Another Monster". I wish Urasawa and Weber would try to make it more available to the Western Hemisphere. I'm sure it would be a lucrative project for them. In the meantime, I can wait until June. Thanks so much for your efforts.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 68 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to Will1892 - Message ID#: 59939774 05-12-2011 09:41 AM I've come to the conclusion that Weber isn't an actual person, anymore than Franz Bonaparta is. Still, it's extremely odd to see him listed as a co-author. :) I imagine that the original translator got a life. :) And he probably got tired of working on it with little to no feedback. I only kept at it because I needed to know for myself how it ended.
Filik10 Posts: 5 Registered: 06-06-2011 Message 69 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 59940172 06-06-2011 02:26 AM Hello everone. Monster is one my absolutly favourite anime and also manga, and probably the greatest designed one I've ever seen. Really, awesome stuff. Recently, few months after re-read I found out about Another Monster and Stephen site. Just started the part two (chapter 12 and next ones) and I think that it is really interesting and also the addictional background could be useful. Of course, I'd really like to see the remaning chapters translated into English, since I don't understand kana at all (I'm probably just too stupid for it). So, Gina (could I call you that?), in my opinion there would be quite a lot people that could use your translation, even if it's not great, as you describe it (but I think that it is good, since you can understand the plot ;) ). Sorry for my bad English and confusing way of describing thoughts. Hope it isn't a huge problem. :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 70 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to Filik10 - Message ID#: 60303792 06-10-2011 06:22 PM Yay, someone interested. :) I'm not ready to show it to anyone just yet, but I am working on it. Turns out that my attempt to acquire the Spanish edition through interlibrary loan has also failed, although, it's not clear to me why, aside from the incompetence of the people putting in the request. It didn't seem to be a case of "OMG, are you loco? We can't send our copy out of the country!" which is what I was expecting. I also managed to order it again from a vendor whose website (still) says they have it in stock, but they canceled the order saying they couldn't get it. I guess "in stock" means something different in Spain... ::sigh:: A lot of sentences I marked are just things that sounded awkward to me and I wanted to see how it was translated in Spanish to get a better feel for it. If it was just that, I'd let it slide. But there are maybe 15 sentences or phrases that I am either just baffled by, or have more than one translation that sounds completely possible and makes a big difference which interpretation I choose, and I can't decide! >.< Until I can figure out how to resolve those sentences, I don't want to put it out there. I might have found someone who can help, but I haven't really gotten started with them, so hopefully this is the person I've been looking for, with the skills to shed some light on these troublesome sentences. I will keep those few of you who care informed. Check back with your PMs in a couple of weeks or so, and in the meantime, wish me luck. :)
Filik10 Posts: 5 Registered: 06-06-2011 Message 71 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60369040 06-14-2011 08:16 AM Ok, I fully understand. Especially the part about canceling the order sounds really familiar to me, in my country websides also tends to do things like that. But first, wait four months for nothing, why not? >,> If that is how the things look like, than I'll be waiting, no problem. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who could help you, sorry. But I wish you luck with the rest of work ;)
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 72 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-15-2011 10:42 AM Hi everyone. i've just today found this thread, and being a fan of Monster since I first saw it, decided to set up an account for pretty much for two things: First, Gina, you're awesome for translating the remaining part of AM. Having played around with some translations myself, I realise how much time-consuming hard work this is. I understand you don't feel ready to show off the result yet, but when, and if you do, I'd really love to see it :) Second, I have an aunt who's currently majoring in something related to developmental psychology (I don't know what exactly, sorry), and has a vivid interest in children's books, so I figured she might be the right person to ask about Bonaparta/Poppe's work. I've been looking on the internet for some in-depth analysis of them, but found nothing beyond fans' speculation. As soon as I talk to her, I'll post it here, if anyone's interested. And third, sorry for my crappy english :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 73 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 60428248 06-15-2011 08:12 PM Good to see some traffic here! Welcome to all the new posters who have signed up just to come here! That said, I'd really be interested in hearing a professional's take on Bonaparta's odd stories (for that matter, I'm interested in hearing anyone's opinion on anything Monster!). But I think the place for that would be in the Monster Post Series discussion thread, since you don't have to have read Another Monster to know what's being discussed. That might draw more views there anyway. I might also post the newer stories from AN (assuming I don't get banned for it - don't quite know if that's verboten or not). Ironically, I just posted in that thread about The Monster Without a Name. :) I've must've been thinking really loud to draw you over here! I finally have gotten a bit of knowledgable help (extremely helpful I must say), so the last touches are proceeding...at the pace they're proceeding, although I have my moments when I feel like I should just leave it to someone who knows what they're doing. Still, it's a good thing I'm at least going over some of the most critical points, since I've learned/realized a couple of very important details with a better translation of a couple of sentences. I guess what's most troubling is that revisiting some parts that I thought were fairly solid has shown me they're not so solid after all. :/ All I can say is, it's the best I can do at my level of profound ignorance, and it's probably better than nothing at all, but I guess that depends on if my translation is so off that it's seriously misleading. :D If I ever do manage to get my hands on the Spanish edition, maybe I'll do an updated version. @Filik10 I'm not quite sure what you mean by this: "But first, wait four months for nothing, why not? >,>" but otherwise I didn't have any problem understanding your English, and I didn't see much to nitpick on InTheGarden's English either, so don't sweat it guys. :)
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 74 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60433608 06-16-2011 06:44 AM I'll post it as soon as I get to talk to her, it should be around the beginning of July, since now I'm insanely busy (finals... are awful :( ). I didn't know there were any additional stories in AM besides The Awakening Monster :O Anyway, good luck with the rest of your translation- I'd offer you some help, but since you're almost already done, and I don't know a single word in Japanese, there's not much I could do anyway :)
Filik10 Posts: 5 Registered: 06-06-2011 Message 75 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60438594 06-16-2011 11:09 AM Good to see that topic getting bigger. ;) Well, Gina, in that sentence I meant that my webshop first had made me wait four months for delivering the book that I wanted, just to inform after that amount of time that it is unavailable. Situation quite smilar to that Spanish shop that you were talking about, so I just wanted to say that i understand. ;)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 76 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to Filik10 - Message ID#: 60440080 06-16-2011 11:35 AM Gotcha. Yeah, but the Spaniards did it to me twice! And it took a month for the library to tell me no dice. Sheesh. :/ If only I could've gotten it from the dude who was selling it in the Mexico City subway... :)
Will1892 Posts: 3 Registered: 05-11-2011 Message 77 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-19-2011 11:14 PM All this talk is starting to get me excited about your progress, Gina! Thanks for your hard work!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 78 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 60438594 06-20-2011 08:27 PM InTheGarden wrote: I didn't know there were any additional stories in AM besides The Awakening Monster :O Well, there's the story of The Door That Must Not be Opened, that was mentioned in Monster, but not really told except to say there was no story. It was actually a nice little story. Well, maybe not nice... But it was interesting. And a snippet of a story that was rejected for being too much like Rosemary's Baby. And besides The Awakening Monster, there is also The Sleeping Monster. :) And of course, several versions of The Magnificent Steiner, all of which are quite different from each other. But those don't quite count (or maybe at least one of them sort of does...)
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 79 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60503956 06-21-2011 10:08 AM I meant picture books, sorry. I've read The Door The Must not be Opened and the "Rosemary's Baby" one, but the other ones... I'm so excited about this :) Is The Sleeping Monster illustrated, or is it just text? And does it tie in to The Awakening Monster? I tried to make sense of that one, but couldn't figure it out, and I'm wondering if it's because I haven't read all of Another Monster, or whether it's at the same level of symbolism and whatnot as the picture books in the anime and manga.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 80 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 60510220 06-21-2011 11:41 AM Sleeping Monster is just text. There's one illustration, but for some reason it shows the monster sleeping in a bed outside, while the story says it's sleeping in a cave. :) It's mentioned in Sobotka's chapter, but told later on by Weber.
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 81 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60511306 06-23-2011 03:01 AM A question of internet savoir-vivre: do I say thanks and seem redundant, or not say anything and seem rude? Well, anyway, thanks for your reply :)
animelover1 Posts: 52 Registered: 11-04-2009 Message 82 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798 06-23-2011 03:58 PM Wait, wait slow down. I have seen Monster the anime, but what do you mean? Is there a season 2. If so is it only manga? All the information you have on the subject would be most appreciated; I love that series!!!!!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 83 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to animelover1 - Message ID#: 60543546 06-23-2011 08:26 PM This thread started last September. How much slower do you want us to go? Just read the thread (you can skip over the off-topic stuff) and your questions should be answered.
djyoshii Posts: 2 Registered: 06-25-2011 Message 84 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60547436 06-25-2011 01:33 AM Wow i'm surprised to see a Monster related thread that's hadn't started/ended back in 07/08 :) Anyway I read the manga quite a few years back, and was just going back to read it again when i discovered (via wiki) that there was a second novel 'Another Monster', which eventually led me to this thread. Gina, Just wondering if you were planning to release your translations of this novel? Was going through the older posts and saw you mentioned sometime in June? Or have you had a change of plans ;) Anyway if you are going to release/share them, could you please PM me/let me know? To be honest that was one of the primary reasons of signing up just now hehe (please don't hate :p) Also noticed several other 'supplementary' books: The Awakening Monster Rosemary's Baby Sleeping Monster The Door That Must Not be Opened etc What are all of these? Could someone please explain it to me? I figure one of them (Sleeping Monster perhaps?) was one of the books featured in the original story in the manga, right? Anyway as i said, im going back to read the series again and figured i'd delve a little deeper into the Monster universe now that i've discovered all these extras! Thanks all :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 85 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to djyoshii - Message ID#: 60568340 06-25-2011 01:04 PM Those are other picture-book stories along the lines of Monster Without a Name that are told in Another Monster. The Awakening Monster appears fully illustrated at the end of both The Monster Without a Name, and Another Monster. If you google Another Monster and pick the obvious link, you'll find the first 19 chapters already translated (by someone who actually knew what he was doing!), and some of those are related there, at least in part. And it will give you something to read while you're waiting for me to wrap this thing up. :) I'm pretty much done except for a couple of particularly confusing (and I think very important) parts that even my wonderful consultant is having trouble with (so I'm asking a couple other people to weigh in, but I have to wait for them to get around to replying, since they actually have lives). I know I'm never going to be satisfied with this (at least not until I can get my hands on the Spanish version to compare). I alternate between thinking it's essentially correct to thinking it's completely wrong. But I guess it's better than nothing, maybe. :) I'll put you on my list.
djyoshii Posts: 2 Registered: 06-25-2011 Message 86 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60572480 06-28-2011 03:52 AM Thanks Gina :) yeah i came across that site with the 19 translater chapters, but after seeing several comments of people left wanting more i figured i'd wait for the remaining chapters to be translated too hehe besides, it gives me time to read Monster again since it's been quite a long while. I also saw those on Amazon Japan, but wasn't sure how they related to the overall story, so thanks for that explanation. Do these additional books add anythign to the overall story, or were they just mentioned in the book and the author/creator decide to actually publish them to add to the effect of the "is it/isn't it real" type of story (similar to Blair Witch).
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 87 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to djyoshii - Message ID#: 60617752 06-28-2011 10:01 PM Hmmm, well, their existence is pretty important to the plot of Another Monster, but the stories themselves are just interesting in the same way as the ones told in Monster. Offering Monster Without a Name as a separate book I think was just because it's neat to have the full color artwork in your hands. :) I don't think it really adds to the "it's real" vibe, since it's not the only story in the book. The other stories (under different pen names) along with Bonaparta's sketches of Anna and the twins are included, which they wouldn't be if any of this was real.
CaffeineCowgirl Posts: 1 Registered: 07-10-2011 Message 88 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60627714 07-10-2011 08:43 AM Hi all, I'm a big fan of all Urasawa's works and I was desperately searching for the translations of the remaining chapters of "Another Monster", I'm glad I found this place :) A big thank you to Gina for her work - you have another fan in line waiting for the translations to be published!
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 89 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to CaffeineCowgirl - Message ID#: 60785420 07-10-2011 03:07 PM Welcome aboard! I think it'll be as done as I can get it right now sometime this week. Just waiting for an answer to two major questions (e.g., I can't tell for sure if it says someone was going to leave a baby with her, or get her pregnant! I think it's the former, but that's a pretty important difference!), and I don't know when they'll get around to answering.
Filik10 Posts: 5 Registered: 06-06-2011 Message 90 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60790374 07-14-2011 06:34 AM Ok, we all are waiting anxiously ;)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 91 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to Filik10 - Message ID#: 60846682 07-14-2011 06:05 PM Check your PMs...
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 92 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 60853270 08-03-2011 03:03 AM OK, I've read all the translated chapters. I'm still planning on going through the whole thing from beginning to end, to get a fuller grasp of it, though. My initial thoughts are below (spoilers up to the end of AM). Spoiler First, I was a bit surprised how different the conclusions of Monster and Another Monster are. In the former, it's pretty much up to the viewer/reader to decide, whether it's a good ending, a bad ending, or a shoot the shaggy dog story, but it does seem to at least imply that the "evil" in the series has if not been eradicated, then at least temporarily stopped. In the latter, it's much more depressing- sure, a lot of new (and very interesting and useful) facts have come to light (I especially enjoyed "Grimmer's Notes"- throughout the whole series, I kept wondering, what I'd be capable of doing just to get my hands on the contents of his duffel bag, and that chapter didn't disappoint. It was incredibly insightful, and I was happy to discover that my assumptions on how things were done in K511 were mostly right), but Urasawa makes the "evil" there look more like some kind of mythical Hydra- if you get rid of it in one place, it just pops up in another, possibly stronger than before, and fighting it is futile. Spoiler Second, we find out (maybe) what the mother's real name is! I don't know if this is just my impression, and I'm not interpreting it right (which is very possible), but Anna II seems to imply that there are actually two Annas as well, and the mother is also one of a couple of living twins. I'm going to have to think a bit more about the implications of that, though, so for now I'll just leave it at this. Spoiler Ever since Gina mentioned in passing here that the title of Johann's favorite book has been revealed, I've been fighting with myself to ask her about it, but finally resisted the temptation. I don't regret it, since it's a much more important plot development than I expected- at first when I read that such a piece of information is available in Karl's chapter, I was incredibly frustrated that Urasawa did not name it right away, but also felt silly for wanting to know such a minor thing so badly. Had it been anything else (I was expecting something random, like, I don't know, Catcher in the Rye?), it wouldn't be even half as significant as Dorn in the Darkness, so now I understand why Urasawa/Weber decided to withhold it for so long. I should've seen it coming, though, with all the attention that was paid to that book in the beginning, and should've known better than to expect something meaningless, when there was such a huge buildup. Spoiler Next thing, the origins of Klaus Poppe, and how his evil plans came to be. The genealogy here is a bit complicated, and I'll probably draw it out for myself later, to exactly understand who fell in love with who, but I really liked his characterization. His daddy issues, the seemingly minor thing that causes his god complex, it all fits nicely, especially since him falling in love with Anna and letting her and the twins free reflects him falling in love with that other girl (who might or might not be the twins' father's mother-things turn kind of soap-operish there with the backstory, and I'm going to have to re-read it to get a full grasp of who's who), and turning evil in the first place. The fact that Bonaparta treats his son in a similar way to which he was treated by his father is also a lovely, psychologically accurate detail :) I also can't shake off the impression that "Liberec" sounds a bit too much like "Liebert" for it to be a coincidence, but again, this is up to further interpretation. So much from me for now, more coming up! :)
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 93 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61160028 08-03-2011 01:25 PM Very interesting comments! It's so exciting to finally be able to talk about this with someone else! Liberec is an actual town though (whose "twin city" happens to be Augsberg, Germany - look it up in Grimmer's notes. :) ), so while he might've picked it for its sound, I think it's more likely he picked it for its location near Jablonec, or because Spoiler it sounds nothing like its German version, so no one who didn't already know could guess. When you go back to reread from the beginning, I have two comments (since I'm doing that myself right now). The original translator said he was 95% sure that Fringennort wasn't a real place, but I think the correct translation of the name is Flingern-Nord, which really is a district of Düsseldorf (the kata used was to (ト) and not do (ド), but in German, a d at the end of a word is pronounced as a t). :) Second, when you read through Lunge's theories about serial and pleasure killers again, I think your ears will prick up at what he's saying more than they did the first time around. :) I know I was definitely going whoa...doesn't that sound familiar now... Spoiler I too think that the twin is still alive, kept for their own purposes without the mother's knowledge. In fact, I'm thinking that "Maruska" might be that twin, but I'm not sure at all. I mean, was she going to pick up the kids (or one of them?) from Anna to protect them, or was Anna going to pick them up, perhaps from her twin? I'm pretty sure Viera is "our" Anna, but I'm still wrestling with it too, so I hope you or someone else can come up with a marvelous insight that fits this all together! But I suspect we're not supposed to be sure. ;) How irritating that Weber picks that chapter to withhold his own comments on things! :D Spoiler I felt like I really should have known it was his favorite. =.= Spoiler The interesting thing to me about Bonaparta's history was how it echoed the bad finale story in The Magnificent Steiner. (women are always worried about becoming their mother, but in AM it seems the men become their fathers. ;) ) It was as if Bonaparte had directed Vergud to write that (not sure if he was active yet at that point - I'm currently collecting all the dates of things to make a timeline). And I also liked the revelation of how the comic story in general was essentially Grimmer's story, from his childhood on. The twins' father was the son of the girl whom both Poppes wanted, but who married Verdemann's father's neighbor. :) But I also think Spoiler that Terner Poppe was the the twins' grandfather. Her hasty marriage to the next-village boy suggests to me that it might have been a sort of shotgun wedding. I think Terner was as cold as his son, and just wanted to make use of her genes, without any interest in marrying her. The phrase used in the text really is as blunt as asking her if he could get her pregnant, rather than asking her to bear his child or some other words that would indicate an emotional connection. If Franz had gotten to her in secret, then I don't think she would've approached him to help his own son in the way that she did (at least according to Weber's information). I.e., she would've expected he would help his own son, where he might be much less willing to help his half-brother, or worse, the son of a rival who won her (if he didn't know that the son was his father's, if it was). Spoiler If in fact Terner is the twins' grandfather, that would make Franz their half-uncle? This is so messed up. XD
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 94 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61164120 08-07-2011 09:31 AM Anna: Spoiler I couldn't come up with a final conclusion regarding Anna/Viera/Maruska, so here are my ideas as to what it might have been: Spoiler a) Anna's the mother's real name, and since she claims her name is Viera around the time she met the twins' father, she was already under Bonaparta's influence by then, who brainwashed her to believe Viera Cerna is her real name in case anyone went looking for the missing girl. This explains both why Capek never mentioned she had a twin to Nina, and why Bonaparta tells her "your name is Anna" in his love letter. (I believe this is pretty important, since I think it's safe to assume Bonaparta knew her real name, and by that time he could've had only one reason to lie, about which I will write in a moment). However, it does not explain the ease with which the detective mrs Kavanova spoke to found her. I mean, one would expect Bonaparta to hide her more effectively, if this was the case. EDIT: On second thought, the "detective" might've been Capek himself. The description fits, but this is kind of a really wild guess, since a lot of people have big noses and glasses... Spoiler b) Viera is her real name, and she impersonates her dead sister to hide from Bonaparta and Capek. Initially I thought this was the most likely explanation, and Bonaparta after his change of heart gives her the "new" name Anna, since Viera and her children are officially dead. On a side note- murdering the 46 people in the Red Rose Mansion was to both erase everyone who knew about the experiment, but also so Vieranna, the twins and Bonaparta could start a new life. This makes sense until you realise the bodies weren't discovered until when Johann burnt the mansion down, so no one knew they were supposed to be dead in the first place. Am I missing something here? Anyway, this isn't a good explanation because "Viera" was using the name Anna at least since she lived in mrs Kavanova's house, and she didn't have anyone to hide from then. Spoiler c) Anna didn't really die, and she and Viera are two different women. I would've thought so, if not for the fact that Viera's mother blamed her for her sister's death. She certainly would've known whether she delivered two living children, or just one, and I can't imagine her putting her daughter through all that stress while she knew her other daughter was alive somewhere. So, I'm leaning towards option number one, although these are all pretty loose theories and it doesn't even seem quite right anyway. Any thoughts on this? :) Sorry for taking so long, I've been a bit busy. I still have a lot to say about both The Magnificent Steiner and the Poppe family, though. Spoiler Gina, I think you're onto something with Poppe senior impregnating the father's mother. And we really shoud make up even some false names for everyone who doesn't have one, unless we want it to get very messy with sentences like "his father's uncle's daughter's wife's son" :P Those two "cases" however, are deserving of their seperate posts, so I'm not saying anything more about it now. Except that syncro vox looks creepy as hell.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 95 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61225242 08-07-2011 04:54 PM I've learned nothing, if not patience, from all this. Honestly, this may well be the first real discussion of this novel outside of Japan, ever. I've found a lot of sites where people tried to start a discussion, but they never went anywhere, even on the "progress report" page of the translation. Even on Spanish language sites, no one seems to be able to get anything going, and they have the entire novel available, so it's not because of the long time between chapters the English trans. has been saddled with. I don't even know what happened to the other people who expressed interest and have yet to read their PMs. Even Krill never came back. :/ It baffles me. On to your comments! First, let me comment on some things you said, and then I'll tell you what crazy theories your insights have sparked in my head. :D Spoiler I believe that it was actually Bonaparta who was the "detective." The reason being the little herbal remedy in black tea he gave her. Both Bonaparta and Chapek wear glasses, but I don't think Chapek is a good enough actor to have made her believe in his kindness (even his best friends seemed creeped out by him), and in Chapter 14 Ranke says about B, "He loved sweet bean cakes and black tea." (How did he acquire a taste for sweet bean cakes in Communist Czechoslovakia? oO) If it's not him, then it must be the guy who interviewed Lipsky to screen him for the reading circle, who was also described as having thick glasses and a big nose. But even Lipsky thought he was creepy. I dunno, half the people in Monster have big noses and glasses, so... :) Spoiler I think what you are missing is that the people Bonaparta was hiding from were the people who buried the bodies. I think Chapek killed them all, but I don't think he was the one who had to clean up after himself. Spoiler Since they'd been watching Vieranna's mother since she was first reported carrying twins, I'd imagine they'd have the delivery under their control - i.e., they could have put her out and done a Caesarian, and having told her before that both would not survive, she'd believe it when they said one was stillborn. Or maybe she didn't believe it in her heart of hearts and went crazy trying to hide from her instinctual knowledge of the loss. Or maybe it's just the classic fictional plot of taking away the baby before it cries and telling the mother it died. :) Spoiler I really like your reasoning about the love letter and giving her back her true name. From this we know then that the twin's mother's name was Anna. That raises several possibilities: The crazy mother kept telling her that it was Anna who died, even though it was Anna who lived (with her, at least), because in her twisted mind Anna must be the one who died since the real Anna couldn't live up to her impossible expectations of the perfect child. This would then suggest that Maruska is the missing twin, who uses the stage name Anna because...she senses Anna is out there, via the sort of twins telepathy that we saw between Johann and Nina in the orphanages (but maybe on a lesser scale), just as Vieranna knows Maruska is alive. If they finally made contact during a time of trouble, that would be how Anna got hooked up with the activists who hid her at the Three Frogs. Or...Anna's mother wasn't Anna's mother, but someone set up to play the part. Why was Bonaparta so interested in twins for his experiment? What had been planned for the other one, after they separated them (assuming they did)? If she was given the name Viera even though she was Anna, then maybe the reason no one could find Anna X registered at Brno was because she was registered as Viera Černá. Maybe she used Anna unofficially because it was another way of living for her sister in her free time? I don't like this theory because it seems like Urasawa would've given more hints about the stand-in mother, in some other testimony about the experiments or something, and I don't see that anywhere. But the first questions still stand, and I think I'm right about the registry. How do you find a student whose name you don't even know? Or...the twin really did die and Anna is as crazy as her mother, living an "I am you and you are me" life for the both of them. The multiple personality theory was applied to both Tenma and Johann in Monster, so maybe that's what's going on. But again, since Anna is her real name, that still needs the "mom is confused about her name" theory. :) You discarded your theory about there being two living twins. Where would you have gone with that if you accept that both are alive? InTheGarden wrote: syncro vox looks creepy as hell. Perfect, isn't it? ^.^
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 96 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61230586 08-08-2011 03:48 AM I think Fritz Weindler got to everyone associated with AM- first Weber, then Stephen ("I've retired"- yeah, nice try), then the people on this forum... We're going to be next! Spoiler You might be right about it being Bonaparta, not Capek, although I don't recall him wearing glasses at that time. And Capek indeed does have a kind of "creepy pedo uncle" vibe going on. I don't know how he got the people in the Turkish District to trust him with their kids... I kind of didn't realise that it'd be difficult for one man to bury 42 people :D So, your theory number one: Anna is raised by her mother, and Maruska is her twin, living elsewhere. Who then is Viera, and why does Anna claim to be her? What I find a bit odd about Hana's testimony is how different it is from the others, and all the other ones are more or less consistent. Hana is also the only one to use the name Viera Cerna. At the end of Anna II Weber says this: "Because each of them believes they spoke the truth", as if he didn't entirely believe one of the stories (I also looked really hard for the "clue" in Kohout's story, but found nothing. I have no idea what it could have been). Oh, hey, what do you think about this? Both twins are alive, their real names are Maruska and Viera, but they both use the alias "Anna" for some reason. Maruska is the person Jana met (and put her in touch with the Charter 77 people), and Viera lived with Hana. But then Viera would've been the one to get pregnant, although it would've been Maruska and the twins Jirik Letzel was hiding, which means they would have to be in touch with each other, and pass Johann and Nina to each other. Now, as you've already asked, what would be the purpose of seperating Viera and Maruska in the first place? If Bonaparta had some sinister experiment in mind (do I even have to mention here that he definitely did? :P ), and managed to carry it out, I don't think both twins would be sane/not evil enough to pull off such a thing. But if I were to believe both women are alive, I think I'd go in this direction. /digression. Oh, the registry! I think you found Kohout's clue! So, Viera feels unaccepted by her mother, who idealises her dead twin, Anna. What Bonaparta means by "your name is Anna" isn't as literal as we thought. What he's trying to say here is "you're just as deserving of love as your sister, and you're perfect the way you are". His whole "experiment" on Viera might've then been to see how someone would react to being unaccepted by her parent, by somehow making Viera's mother feel she is the "worse" twin. This would be fitting with his later "M.O" and the themes of Monster. It would also add to Viera's psychological distress after being forced to choose between Nina and Johann- she would know that essentially, she would be doing to one of her children what her mother had done to her. If I were to follow this theory (and I admit I like it best of all the ones I came up with, because it's so simple, and I believe Occam's razor should be applied here), a loose end appears to be the name Maruska, and how it fits to the story, but it might have just been another false name, used as a precaution while interacting with the Charter 77 people. Perfectly creepy is just the way I like it :3
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 97 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61244054 08-09-2011 02:14 AM Hmm, you're right about the glasses... I feel like we're supposed to know who she's talking about, and I just don't. Unless the glasses were a disguise! :-D Spoiler Chapek must've been around to direct the burials, even if he didn't dig the mass grave himself (although I still have this mental image of him laboring away in the dead of night). He would've had to report the deaths to shift suspicion off himself (if everybody just disappeared without a trace, that alone would've made the people in charge launch an investigation), and to keep anyone above him who would recognize Bonaparta from examining the bodies. But I have to wonder who they thought was responsible? Btw, the revelation about the bodies puts a whole different spin on the Sophie's Choice moment, doesn't it? I guess I was previously under the impression that he changed him mind once he got her there and poisoned the wine during the time Nina was in isolation, so it was a shock to realize how far ahead he'd planned it. Given that planning, it seems like it would've been easier (and apparently what his superiors thought he did) to bring all of them to the Mansion, but he let her spare one child the horror of what Nina went through there. In his warped eyes, I suppose that was a kindness (which sort of backfired on him), but making her choose... :/ Do you think he told her his plan? Spoiler The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning toward your first hypothesis, that Bonaparta renamed her Viera at some point. So maybe she just remembers that the "dead" twin is Anna as a memory fragment of her early life, confusing the loss of her own name with the missing twin. Is it possible that Hana's memory is wrong? I got creepy feelings when Mrs. Kavanova kept saying she couldn't remember her name (or the wonderful detective), as if those memories had been erased, even though she describes the event as unforgettable. Kohout couldn't remember her name either, but he remembered her major and all sorts of other details about her. And speaking of Kohout, I think his clue was just that secrets were being kept for present reasons rather than past reasons. I'm not sure what we're supposed to get from that either. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong about the other twin really being alive as she thought and I was right about her delusion being a result of "I am you and you are me" dissociative disorder. Gah!!! What do you make of the sketch at the end? :) I have as many theories about that as anything, but one of those is that it might be relevant to the above discussion. Wait, I think I just heard a noise in the back room... >.>
InTheGarden Posts: 17 Registered: 06-15-2011 Message 98 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61253810 08-10-2011 04:55 AM Unless the glasses were a disguise! Like this? Spoiler I was under the impression that the people murdered in the Red Rose Mansion were the people in charge (since they were the ones that knew about the experiment), so the ones investigating would've been the people in charge of the people in charge :P My guess would be that Capek blamed it on Bonaparta, maybe even with his permission- he's "dead" anyway, and since they planned this a while back, they could've taken care to make Bonaparta seen messing with the wine or something, and use "he just went crazy and poisoned himself and everyone in the room" as an excuse. I still think he had a change of heart when Nina was already in the room. There would be no point in making people see her at the mansion, again, since they would've been too dead to testify she was actually there, and she was there for so long that they had plenty of time to plan everything. If he, as you say, had this already in mind while taking away Nina, and told her mother about it, Anna wouldn't have been so terrified... Well, she would be, knowing that one of her kids would have to witness a mass murder, but, I don't know, I got the impression she thought they were taking her away to conduct further experiments on her, and harm her. I can see the malice in Bonaparta and Capek's eyes in that scene, and it doesn't feel like they're up to any good. Maybe the whole period when Nina was kept in the room was Bonaparta's time to rethink everything, decide whether he wanted to continue the experiment or finish it, and what he wants to do next. Yeah, I also think Hana's memories might be wrong, she's lying or Anna actually told her that, but her memories were wrong. I thought about what those present reasons could be, but besides helping to hide Anna, from either journalists, her crazy son, Bonaparta or anyone else, I can't think of what it could be, and even if that was the goal, they could have done it more effectively. I still stand by my last theory, that Bonaparta screwed with Anna's mother to make her make Viera feel unaccepted, and see what results would've come of that. I haven't really though much about the sketch yet. It's obviously Johann, but I have no idea what it could mean. It doesn't make much sense to me that Fritz would claim to want to make everything disappear, just like Johann (I figured he was strongly under his influence, hence the "Four years ago, I went to Prague. Who knows why, but I wanted to set foot again in the scariest place, the Red Rose Mansion. But it was engulfed in flames. And then he emerged from within. I was set free. I stopped running. I could paint my picture books, and live like him." quote. Could it be possible that Johann put Weindler up to erasing everything in case something happened to him and he couldn't finish the job himself?), but then leave Weber's files, his tape recorder and the sketch lying around. Since I haven't seen the sketches included in AM, I don't know what his style is, and can't tell whether the drawing was done by Weber or Weindler. Does it look like Weber's other drawings? And why would anyone draw Johann in the first place? I'm dying to hear your theory on this :) I had a Cat Power album playing while writing all this, and usually when I'm focused on something else, I don't hear the music, but I picked up the line "he's dying to meet you" randomly. I'm scared now D: Spoiler I was planning on making this message about Steiner and Poppe, but got a bit carried away, and I don't want to make a monster-post, but there's a couple of things I'd like to mention. You said you thought Bonaparta put Vergud up to writing The Magnificent Steiner, but weren't sure about the timelines- I checked, and in chapter 29 Milos Prochazka says "He probably left town in 1950 or so". Steiner was first aired in the US in 1959, so I think tMS is partly Bonaparta's work, if not the whole thing, then definitely the "bad" ending, especially since it echoes Klaus' personal story. Something else I also noticed is that the "good" ending reflects Grimmer's last stand, with him realizing he's "Steiner", regaining his emotions and becoming a "complete" person again. Too bad he never got to see it ;(. Also, in brackets, you added that you don't know who "William" is, as in the company that published Superman Steiner. What do you think about this? The timelines are correct, and from the description it seems like Superman Steiner (which then changed name to The Magnificent Steiner) would've been something they'd be into. And now, after re-reading, I'm convinced either Terner or Klaus is the grandfather of Nina and Johann, and that girl's marriage to Vardemann senior's neighbor was a shotgun wedding.
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 99 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61268674 08-10-2011 08:37 PM LOL! Suk said that the bodies included staff, and probably psychologists and psychiatrists who went missing. Grimmer's notes later describe them as researchers. From what we saw in the anime, it seemed like along with those sorts were some VIP types, invited to see the child. So I guess there's in charge and In Charge. :) Spoiler I imagine Chapek might very well have blamed it all on Bonaparta, although at the time maybe his hero-worship wouldn't have allowed him to. I'm just thinking it would've taken some time and planning to come up with the extra bodies that would match the right specs, without setting off an investigation of missing people. It wouldn't matter if the families of the researchers reported them missing because they knew the researchers were dead, but if at that same time there were reports of a missing man (description matching Bonaparta), woman (matching Anna), and two children, the people looking for Bonaparta would've caught on. It's especially sad to think no one reported those two anonymous kids missing. :( That said, it makes me wonder now, what was the point of isolating Nina then? Was that already on the "curriculum" and he couldn't back out of it at that point without it looking suspicious? Or maybe you're right and it just wouldn't take Chapek that long to find suitable substitutes? I think I'm going to have to set aside the Anna question for awhile (maybe if anyone else ever weighs in, they'll have a solution or at least new ideas). So far, I'm not completely convinced by any of our theories, although it's definitely given me food for thought. Maybe if I let it stew awhile longer with your added ingredients... Hopefully one of us will eventually have an "ooh, ooh, I've got it!" moment. :D Spoiler As for the sketch... Ok, it appears to be Weber's work, but it is SO sketchy, and given that it's all Urasawa's sketching, I suppose it could be Weindler's (for that matter, it could be mine!). As for the tape, that was found outside, and I assumed Weber did that, maybe covertly dropping it in the garden as he was taken away? The rest of his research materials were probably back in his office in Vienna. Since he had time to make the sketch, I figure that Weindler dropped by, let him read the manuscript (it's the least he could do!) and chatted with him a bit before abducting him (without a struggle!?), if that's what happened. He left the manuscript behind so someone would publish it. One idea I had was that yes, it's Johann, awakened from his coma, after such a thing was called a "ridiculous" theory. Maybe Johann was there with Weindler? o.o The only other thing I could think was that Weindler is related to Johann somehow (but how, I don't know - there aren't any mystery spaces he'll fit into, given what we know about him), and therefore looks very like him. I keep thinking that face looks a bit older than Johann (but maybe not 30 years older), but again, it's hard to say anything without it feeling like its your imagination filling in the gaps to suit your ideas. I mean, that face could be a woman with her hair pulled back. Btw, you mentioned that Occam's Razor should be applied...you do realize this is an Urasawa story we're talking about? The simplest explanation is almost never the right one! :smiley wink:
GinaSzamboti Posts: 27,612 Registered: 09-16-2003 Message 100 of 529	Re: Another Monster Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61268674 08-10-2011 09:03 PM OMG, I think you've got it, re William! I still can't tell if it's intended as a person or a company name, but I'd bet money that's the reference for it (see also EC//BG!). I'm so sure, I'm going to alter the note about it. I've long been acquainted with his battles against the CCA, but I think his first name has never registered as strongly as his last, and I just didn't make the connection. Thanks so much!