[as] Another Monster: 3

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 101 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61278912

08-12-2011 11:56 AM

And yet again, I get carried away...

Spoiler
I imagine Chapek might very well have blamed it all on Bonaparta, although at the time maybe his hero-worship wouldn't have allowed him to.
I think he would do it if Bonaparta told him to. It seems the most likely, and again, the simplest explanation :)

It's especially sad to think no one reported those two anonymous kids missing. :(
That might be one of the most upsetting things to happen in Monster. No, seriously. Why did you make me think about that? :(

You're right about it having to be people no one would notice were gone, but I don't think it would've been as difficult as you make it to be- people went missing an awful lot then, and they might've even used someone from a previous experiment of Bonaparta's or something. As to Nina, I think it went like this: They take her away (it's on the curriculum, as you said, and at this point they're still following it), Bonaparta has his change of heart, but can't let her go as long as the people that know about the experiment are alive, know she's there, and know for how long she's supposed to be in the room, so he plans their murder with Capek, and after it's carried out, leaves it to her to inform Johann and Anna about what happened, believing that both of them are still at The Three Frogs. It's still unclear to me what exactly happened there between them after Capek, Bonaparta and Nina left, but from the re-enacted dialogue at the vampire's house in Ruhenheim, I gathered that their mother just kind of left on her own and Franz had nothing to do with it.

So, in short, I think the 42 people (or at least some of them) knew Nina was supposed to be in that room for x days and then immediately shown to them, and the party was the best opportunity to finish them all off at once.

I agree with you about the "Two Annas" mystery- let it stew :P

I missed the part where Nagasaki says the tape was found outside, but OK, it makes sense now :)

I kind of think it was Weindler's sketch, not Weber's. Weber could have done it only if he knew what Johann looks like (please correct me if I'm wrong about this, because I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think he ever asked any interviewee for a description of him, neither does he mention having any kind of picture), or if he was there in person, and I don't believe he was. Besides, sketching would be the last thing on his mind if his life was in danger. Also, Weindler sketching Johann both reminds me of Jurgens coloring Johann's hair in the picture Gillen gave him (I still don't know what that was about- was he trying to be creepy? Was Johann wearing a wig at the time they met? Was he trying to show a metaphorical darkness surrounding him?), and seems in character, since he was obsessed with him.

Indeed, there's no spot to "fit" Weindler into, so I think he's a separate character and there isn't anything to know about him besides the things Weber tells us directly. But there's still the puzzled silence Weber describes when someone picks up the phone in Feuer's apartment, and I think it's important, but I don't know what it means yet. Unless it was just really Feuer who picked up and that's how he figured out someone's looking for him. But I don't think he would've been "puzzled" if that was the case.

A small question about Capek: Ahmet tells the story of a boy who attended his classes, was caught shoplifting, and after being told by Petr "money is worthless, you know" commits suicide. Do you think he did it because such an authority figure showed he was disappointed with him, or because what Capek said was so contradictory to what he was teaching the boys, and it ruined his worldview (I can't help but think that "money has no value" wasn't exactly what he was preaching)?

Btw, you mentioned that Occam's Razor should be applied...you do realize this is an Urasawa story we're talking about? The simplest explanation is almost never the right one!

Fair point :P

You have nothing to thank me for when it comes to William- if anything, I should be thanking you for the translation! And I'm just too happy to help in some way, even if it's such a small thing ;)

Another thing I've been wanting to write, but keep forgetting- I've talked to my aunt about the storybooks, and also asked a couple of questions to a friend of mine, who's a slavistics student, specializing in Czech (aren't I lucky? :P ). They both gave me some insights, but I'm afraid it's much less than I expected. Since I already promised to make an analysis of the storybooks, and wouldn't want to disappoint any potential readers with how little material I have, I've been thinking I might get a closer look at K511, and merge the two things, since Kinderheim's program was based on Bonaparta's work. I'll post it in the Monster thread when I'm done, sorry about this massive delay :(

P.S.. nr 35: To all you guys/girls reading this and not posting anything, I encourage you to do so! All kind of input is appreciated.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 102 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61300666

08-13-2011 04:50 PM

As far as I'm concerned, you can't get too carried away, although if the unhidden text takes up more than two pages, you might want to split it into two posts. :D

Yeah, I think that's what Chapek did too. And I think you've convinced me that it was a somewhat spur of the moment decision.

I think Jurgens was coloring in his own hair color (makes me wonder if he shaved his head in response to his shocking experience in the basement), since Johann had replaced his own face in the pictures with Jurgens'. So he too was turning Johann's face into his own. Which leads me to the answer to your other question.

Spoiler
I'm sure Weber knew what Johann looked like. There was apparently major reporting on the case in the German press (even Andrews had read about it, so not just the German press), and even the most basic research would have turned up photos of Johann for the articles. Even if it hadn't, Rudy had a nice picture of him, and would have given Weber a copy if he didn't already have one. I just can't fathom a reporter working to this extent on a subject without having any idea what he looked like. :)

I guess I took it as some sort of message, rather than just sketching to be sketching. I'm still wondering about the "no signs of a struggle" thing though. Was he stalling for time while pretending to interview and sketch him like he had everyone else, and then agreed to go with him for some reason? I don't know how Weber could've made the sketch without Weindler noticing, or why a sketch would be ok, but leaving a written note would be too dangerous. But you're right, if it's Weindler's work, more things make sense, although why he'd leave it behind is still a question.

If Johann was with him, that would explain the sketch (but not why Weber didn't just write "Gah! It's Johann!!!!"), the puzzled silence (if it was Johann who picked up the phone), and making such an issue out of Johann's favorite book (while Weindler wouldn't have known to contact Johann, Johann might've sought out the author of his favorite book), as well as being ironic that the translator (I mis-remembered it as Weber saying that) dismissed all the theories about Johann's status at the end. It also gives extra meaning to The Awakening Monster, as well as the motivation for writing it.

So...which explanation leaves the fewest unanswered questions and raises the fewest new ones? :D

Spoiler
As to your last question, maybe the bigger unanswered question is why were any of those kids committing suicide? Not to mention the babies of the K511 grads! This is one of those places where I feel like something supernatural is going on, i.e., there seems to be something evil in the whole program itself that no one is able to articulate, but that they can still sense. This evil seems to have been present at the Red Rose Mansion long before Bonaparta bought it, and just used him to spread its influence further afield. :)

Anyway, that specific instance sort of reminded me of "The Man with the Big Eyes, The Man with the Big Mouth" story, where no matter which you choose, it's all futile and you'll end up miserable, regretting your choice. First Chapek seems to be trying to instill a good work ethic, or just to train the kids not to run afoul of the law (as his own credentials were impeccable when he defected), but then he tells him that money is worthless anyway, or that it's not what matters (of course it's also possible my translation there is off, and he's making a different point :/ ). So, "work to get money/money is worthless" sets up a sort of cognitive dissonance that makes the kids unstable?? Beats me, but it obviously was troubling enough to Mustafa to tell the story.

I'm afraid not enough people have gotten the translation to comment here, but even so, for six months I couldn't get a peep out of anyone at all about the first 19 chapters, so my hopes are not high. :/

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 103 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61318096

08-16-2011 06:18 AM

Spoiler
But I wonder how Bonaparta explained his motives to Chapek to get him to essentially destroy the program for him? It sounds like he didn't understand why they needed the extra 4 bodies, but why was he ok with wiping out all the staff and researchers in the first place?

He had nightmares about it even years later, so he wasn't completely OK with it. As to how Bonaparta got Capek to do it in the first place- Capek really worshipped Franz, and I think that in that state of mind, he'd do anything Bonaparta told him to, without questioning it, even if he felt what he's doing is evil. He also tells Milan he did it because there was no one else that qualifies, and that "that man" was entirely to blame, so he was probably trying to absolve himself of his own guilt by telling himself Bonaparta was the only one responsible, since he was just carrying out his orders.

I think Jurgens was coloring in his own hair color (makes me wonder if he shaved his head in response to his shocking experience in the basement), since Johann had replaced his own face in the pictures with Jurgens'. So he too was turning Johann's face into his own.

Oh, great! I never though of that :)

I'm sure Weber knew what Johann looked like. There was apparently major reporting on the case in the German press (even Andrews had read about it, so not just the German press), and even the most basic research would have turned up photos of Johann for the articles. Even if it hadn't, Rudy had a nice picture of him, and would have given Weber a copy if he didn't already have one. I just can't fathom a reporter working to this extent on a subject without having any idea what he looked like. :)

What threw me off was Weber saying in the beginning that not much is known about Johann's identity, and Johann had a habit of not leaving any pictures of himself behind. But now when I think about it, he was at least captured on tape when he appeared in public with Schuwald, so yeah.

The sketch being a message sounds like the most probable explanation- I just realised, if it was Weber sketching to buy himself some time, he obviously wouldn't be drawing it in such a hurry, and if Johann was there, I can't see him not objecting to Weber drawing him. So I'll assume here that the sketch was Weindler's. This however doesn't clear up why he'd be drawing in a hurry. As to the "no signs of a struggle" thing, I think Weindler could've convinced Weber to go with him semi-peacefully, since Johann had already done so earlier with Braun, and they both seem to be similarly skilled when it comes to influencing people. Or maybe he just put a gun to his head and threatened to kill him if he tried to escape.

Maybe Weindler wants a sketch of Johann to be his calling card, and he'll leave one at each crime scene :D

The puzzled silence does sound like Johann :O I don't think he tried to contact Weindler, though, unless the burning of the Red Rose Mansion was timed so that Johann knew Weindler would be there, but I don't think he had any way of knowing it. Anyway, that's how I read Weindler's "confession"- that they met for the first time coincidentally after Johann set the mansion on fire.

Anyway, how Johann found Dorn in the Darkness in the first place is a mystery on its own. Karl says he liked it before they found out who he is, and Johann didn't remember anything about The Red Rose Mansion and the reading seminars before his fainting episode in the library, so he wouldn't even know what to look for earlier on if he was trying to find out anything about his past. Do you think he just found it randomly in a bookstore and liked it as one would normally like a book? Because, considering it's content, that's really disturbing, even for Johann.

Not to mention the babies of the K511 grads!

I present exhibit number one. Now imagine what effect it would have on those children if they were exposed to that constantly. I'm personally not a big fan of the "there's something supernatural going on in Monster" theory, mostly because I wouldn't have so much to ponder on, and all inconsistencies could be then just chalked up to some magic stuff happening. I just enjoy finding rational explanations too much :)

So, "work to get money/money is worthless" sets up a sort of cognitive dissonance that makes the kids unstable??

It's also probable that this kind of thing was amongst his usual tricks. First setting himself up as an authority figure, then sending mixed messages... I think it's enough to make some preteen (or were they older? I don't remember :( ) kids confused and angry.

And yeah, maybe in a way Capek was trying to recreate the plot of The Man With The Big Eyes, The Man With The Big Mouth, or kind of apply the message of the book to a real world situation to check how well it works. I can't however shake off the impression that Capek was very looked up to amongst the boys, and his disapproval also played a large part in the boy's suicide, so maybe it was both factors combined.

So no one else got back to you on the translation yet? :( That's strange, since a lot of people seemed very interested in reading it, and even now there are still some lurkers reading this thread.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 104 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61353396

08-16-2011 11:48 PM

Well, I only have two outstanding requests, but there weren't many to begin with, and I guess they either haven't read it yet, or don't feel the need to come back and talk about it. :)

Spoiler
When I said Ok with it, I meant ok with essentially dismantling the program, not the killing people. While I think the grisly results of what he did (including getting extra bodies) were part of the nightmares, I think the fear that fueled them was of being found out while he was still in Czechoslovakia. It was just an idle wondering, since there's no way we can know. :)

If we assume it's Weber's sketch, then I imagine a scenario where he said something like, "Ok, I'll go with you, just let me get my stuff here," (it didn't sound like he left his clothes and such behind, although I'm not sure if it would be more worth mentioning if he had or if he hadn't) and quickly sketched it out covertly while pretending to do something else. To me that's the only explanation for the haste of the sketch. And yet, it's still weird to leave a sketch and not a quickly scribbled note. ::throws up hands::

I agree that their meeting at the mansion was one of those Monster coincidences. I was thinking that Johann looked him up after he woke up, not before. But I'm not sure whether they spoke to each other at the Mansion. It felt like he only saw Johann, and knowing who he was (because of his involvement with Chapek, et al), understood his purpose in torching the mansion, without needing to speak to him. Maybe I just think that because I can't imagine what Johann would have had to say to him at that time. Hell, Johann would've been just as likely to kill him as talk to him, to erase yet one more person who knew him.

If Johann were still in a coma, then why would he say, "...there will be only he and I?" (I'm thinking I should change that to "...only he and I will remain." just to read less awkwardly. But that has a slightly different meaning, to be the last ones standing, rather than being the only people who can access that place.)

Dorn in the Darkness was apparently a pretty popular series, so it wouldn't have been hard for Johann to encounter it, and certainly there would be things in its subtexts that would resonate with him, even if he didn't know why. I guess I was thinking Johann woke up, escaped, and looked up the author of these novels whose style he now recognized, because he also recognized what was going on with the Kottmann murders (which would explain the puzzlement, if he didn't yet know he was Feuer). To paraphrase Grimmer, if a man like [Weber] could find him, a man like Johann could find him. :) I don't know how Weindler would've known to go look for Johann.

[btw, the kanji used when Weindler said he kept Kottman for a year, means to keep as a pet. I couldn't think of a good way to get that across without bluntly saying "Ahh, the man I kept as a pet," which would invite other interpretations...and I didn't want readers to go there, since that's not what he meant. ;D]

I'm breaking this into two posts. :) More tomorrow.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 105 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61353396

08-20-2011 01:54 PM

I'm not spoiler texting this, unless it's info that wasn't in Monster.

InTheGarden wrote:
I present exhibit number one. Now imagine what effect it would have on those children if they were exposed to that constantly. I'm personally not a big fan of the "there's something supernatural going on in Monster" theory, mostly because I wouldn't have so much to ponder on, and all inconsistencies could be then just chalked up to some magic stuff happening. I just enjoy finding rational explanations too much :)

I don't know if you've read any of the Monster on Sci-Fi thread, so forgive me for rehashing old stuff. :)

The link was very interesting, and might help to explain the babies not thriving (even if their mothers were still attentive though? I dunno), but the kids in Chapek's classes still had their loving families around them, which should be the greater influence, unless the ones that killed themselves actually didn't have loving families. But that didn't seem to be the case, at least with Milan's son. But I know that even though they say parents have the most influence over their kids' values and attitudes, other forces can come in and disrupt that, which seems to have happened here.

As to the supernatural angle, the whole Monster story is presented in such a way that you can view it either way, I think. But I don't want to fill in any plot hole or hazy areas with "it's supernatural! It's paranormal!" either. I'm saying that the story is set in a reality in which evil exists and evil people do evil things, but that some of that evil is influenced by paranormal forces. :)

The Revelation quote regarding The Beast that the whole thing starts off with sets that tone. There are a number of things in both Monster and Another Monster that support that sense of underlying demonic evil, but this is the main one: how many people talked about or reported seeing the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns? The children around the Red Rose Mansion circa WWII had their urban legend about the beast, the children chosen for Bonaparta's reading circle saw it in ink blots, Sievernich believed in it, Wim's father saw it, and

Spoiler
the people in young Johann's tale about the hidden boy in K511 saw it (where did he come up with the image? btw, to me that story is another hint that Johann did awaken from his coma).

All these people in different times and places aren't just talking about the existence of random monsters, but a very specific image of a specific monster. To call that a coincidence (which it must be if there's no supernatural or paranormal element at play) doesn't seem to me to be any more rational an explanation. :)

I guess what I'm saying is that when you're writing a story about a battle between good and evil, suggestions of gods and demons at work behind the scenes doesn't strike me as out of bounds, even if the events of the story are essentially grounded in reality.

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 106 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61362264

08-20-2011 02:30 PM

Spoiler
When I said Ok with it, I meant ok with essentially dismantling the program, not the killing people. While I think the grisly results of what he did (including getting extra bodies) were part of the nightmares, I think the fear that fueled them was of being found out while he was still in Czechoslovakia. It was just an idle wondering, since there's no way we can know. :)

Well, Capek is a coward that's scared of facing the consequences of his own actions, as was shown in his scene with Johann in the manga and anime, so you're probably right that his fear of being found out was also fuel to his nightmares. And yet he never considers turning back and trying to atone. BTW, I really like how Another Monster portrays him as someone both extremely attracted to and very terrified of the "darkness"- in the manga, he seemed much less fleshed out, and I didn't have any particular feelings about him either way (except thinking how pathetic it was for him to try to throw up the wine he just drank in his "escape cottage" after realizing Johann tampered with it), but now, he might even be one of my favorite characters.

I still think it was Weindler's sketch, not Weber's. Although your explanation seems plausible, I don't think Weindler would let Weber enter a room alone and not at least later check if he hadn't left a message or something- that's what I'd do if I were to kidnap someone, it's just common sense. Besides, if he did draw it, why didn't he drop it in front of the building, with his tape recorder? Or maybe Weindler did check, and decided the sketch could stay for some reason, but I don't know what that could've been. To try to frame Johann? Even typing that seems ridiculous :D

I think it would've been more worth mentioning if he disappeared as he standed and left his stuff behind. If he packed, there's always the possibility he left on his own- if he didn't, then it's sure that something bad happened to him. The way I read it, it seemed Nagasaki described an empty room, so my guess is that he took his things, but that's just my impression.

I don't think Johann would've had to say anything to Weindler- he didn't when he was manipulating those serial killers from Unrelated Murders. Why do you think he didn't look him up until after he woke up? (assuming he did). At the time of burning the mansion, he would've already known enough to realize this Weindler/Feuer guy might be someone important if he did a bit of research. Even Weber theorizes about this in Suk's chapter, asking him if he thinks Johann was looking for a registry of The Red Rose Mansion experiment attendees.

[btw, the kanji used when Weindler said he kept Kottman for a year, means to keep as a pet. I couldn't think of a good way to get that across without bluntly saying "Ahh, the man I kept as a pet," which would invite other interpretations...and I didn't want readers to go there, since that's not what he meant. ;D]

I can see how that could be taken the wrong way D:

EDIT: What great timing! I'll get to part two right away :)

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 107 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61403046

08-20-2011 03:41 PM

I've skimmed through the Monster thread a long time ago, and barely remember any of it, so rehashing is more than fine with me :)

But I know that even though they say parents have the most influence over their kids' values and attitudes, other forces can come in and disrupt that, which seems to have happened here.

Spoiler
Some time ago I've had an argument about this with a friend of mine- she was sure that after kids reach a certain age, their peer group is a much bigger influence than their parents. I disagreed, and we didn't reach a consensus, so I guess this is just one of those things where there's no definite answer (unless there's been some kind of study on this, but unfortunately, I've never heard of such a thing). Maybe it depends on the kid. So I agree that here it'd be best to simply assume that at some point Capek's classes meant more to them than their family. Maybe what he was creating there was sect-like, and we know how belonging to such a group can change one's behavior.

OK, I'm finding it hard to present a good counterargument to your beast theory :) I was initially thinking that the Beast isn't a very obscure Bible character, but still it's odd that they didn't refer to the evil as simply "the Devil", as I assume most people wanting to go into religious symbolism would do.

The other reason why I'm not choosing the supernatural interpretation of Monster is that I think it kind of undermines what I believe is the message of the series: that people often do monstrous things, but that doesn't mean they themselves are monsters, and there is no such thing as pure evil.

This, however, is part of what makes Monster so great- you can pick your own interpretation, neither being more or less valid than the other, since one could easily argue that the message is "there is such a thing as real evil, here embodied in this young fellow named Johann, who just woke up from his coma and is as evil as ever, so Tenma and Nina's efforts never really mattered".

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 108 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61403340

08-20-2011 03:45 PM

InTheGarden wrote:

Spoiler
I still think it was Weindler's sketch, not Weber's. Although your explanation seems plausible, I don't think Weindler would let Weber enter a room alone and not at least later check if he hadn't left a message or something- that's what I'd do if I were to kidnap someone, it's just common sense. Besides, if he did draw it, why didn't he drop it in front of the building, with his tape recorder? Or maybe Weindler did check, and decided the sketch could stay for some reason, but I don't know what that could've been. To try to frame Johann? Even typing that seems ridiculous :D

I think it would've been more worth mentioning if he disappeared as he standed and left his stuff behind. If he packed, there's always the possibility he left on his own- if he didn't, then it's sure that something bad happened to him. The way I read it, it seemed Nagasaki described an empty room, so my guess is that he took his things, but that's just my impression.

Spoiler
Yeah, it sounded to me like the room was empty too. I guess I envisioned it as a single room, so he'd already be in there. If he took all his stuff with him, gathering it with his back to Weindler (and Johann?) would give him opportunity to draw covertly with one hand. And as to, "why not just write a note??" I'm starting to think it's just a plot device to tell us Johann woke up, without actually saying Johann woke up, so that people who really, really don't want to think Johann woke up won't have to. :)

Here's my most far-fetched explanation: Weber had already realized while talking with Weindler on the phone that Johann was awake (maybe from the "he and I at the End" line) and was sketching it then (maybe that's why he specified, "the hand that was holding the receiver trembled," instead of I trembled or my hands were trembling?).

And as to why he wouldn't drop it with the tape, well, paper blows away. :)

InTheGarden wrote:

Spoiler
I don't think Johann would've had to say anything to Weindler- he didn't when he was manipulating those serial killers from Unrelated Murders. Why do you think he didn't look him up until after he woke up? (assuming he did). At the time of burning the mansion, he would've already known enough to realize this Weindler/Feuer guy might be someone important if he did a bit of research. Even Weber theorizes about this in Suk's chapter, asking him if he thinks Johann was looking for a registry of The Red Rose Mansion experiment attendees.

Spoiler
Hmm, you've got a point. He could have looked him up before, and his name (Weindler? or is that also a penname?) should've been on the list which Weber says Johann got hold of. But by the time Johann was heading for the mansion, he was all about tying up loose ends.

I was so happy to learn at last who that cheery sweater guy was, but I didn't expect him to be such a creepazoid! Some have speculated that that was Johann's last effort to stop himself, and when the guy failed him, he tied up another loose end. That murder is what makes me think that if Johann had even noticed Wiendler at the mansion, he would have killed him too. Although Johann didn't need to speak to his proxy murderers, he still communicated with them in the sand pit, and Wiendler's account doesn't seem to suggest any interaction between them, other than Wiendler recognizing Johann and perceiving his motives for the arson. None of that requires more than just seeing him and knowing who he was (and perhaps the shared background of the reading circles).

I was just trying to figure out why Johann would be puzzled by someone asking for Hermann Feuer when answering Hermann Feuer's phone. :)

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 109 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61404262

08-22-2011 09:52 PM

Holy crap, someone just dropped Chapters 20-21 in Spanish in my mailbox! ^.^ (I've invited him to the discussion, and I hope he accepts the invitation so I can thank him publicly)

So far, it's done my heart good to see that I'm not very wrong on stuff so far, but I've still already made some minor revisions to Chapter 20 (nothing that would affect how to interpret the story, I don't think). The end of the story about Chapek and the kid is different though. And from what I can see, it's different from what the Japanese actually said. I think maybe they added some stuff to clarify the point of the story though. Or maybe they just really took some liberties with the text. :)

It's hard to tell because I did find one sentence in the Spanish that is definitely wrong (waiting to learn whether it's an error in the original text or not).

This is so exciting! :DDDD

Also, I've been meaning to mention this for awhile now, but I finally realized that Weber's "translator," Takashi Nagasaki, is a frequent collaborator with Urasawa in the real world.

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 110 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61434328

08-23-2011 04:57 AM

I remember watching an interview with Urasawa on youtube, and they mentioned Nagasaki as Urasawa's friend and editor (at least I believe it was him, I'm about 90% sure), so I already knew about this :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SpwTMyVNmg Here's the link to part two (part one was unfortunately deleted), if you're interested and haven't seen it yet- I found it pretty inspiring, and Urasawa himself seems like a really cool guy.

Please send me your revised version of chapters 20-21 when you're done :)

I think they might've just opted for a "beautiful instead of faithful" translation- a lot of translators do that as long as it still gets the point across.

As to your mysterious friend, I also hope he/she drops by :)

Back to AM:

Spoiler
I'm starting to think it's just a plot device to tell us Johann woke up, without actually saying Johann woke up, so that people who really, really don't want to think Johann woke up won't have to.

Subtle jab taken :D But the more we talk it over, the more I'm starting to accept the he has indeed woken up. I still don't believe he was in Weber's room with Weindler, though (BTW, I think Weindler is also a false name, since I assume he's Czech, and both Hermann Feuer and Fritz Weindler are German names, but I'll have to check if anything else's said about this). When you think about it, most of the stuff Weber dug up about Johann could be as well discovered by anyone else, so Johann wouldn't really have a reson to kill him, especially since he wasn't even particularly interested in Johann and focused more on Weindler instead. But if he did, and he already sent Weindler there, there'd be no reason for him to also go, and it doesn't fit his MO. Throughout the series, every time he orders one of his lackeys to kill someone, he doesn't show up there personally (with the exception of fake Margot Langer, but that's kind of a different situation, since he had to be there to talk to her first, and still leaves before she gets killed).

And as to why he wouldn't drop it with the tape, well, paper blows away.

D'oh! *facepalm*

Hmm, you're probably right about Johann not noticing Weindler, but he never goes after the other reading circle kids, so I dunno... Tea and Sweater Dude was also really bothering me- it's obvious the readers are supposed to assume he was one of Johann's little helpers, but it was still frustrating to not know who he was or what he was exactly doing for him. I'm glad AM cleared that up. As to him trying to get the guy to kill him while he was there, to me that effort seemed kind of half-hearted, but I agree it was a (pretty lazy) attempt to stop himself.

I was just trying to figure out why Johann would be puzzled by someone asking for Hermann Feuer when answering Hermann Feuer's phone.

Maybe he knew him as Fritz Weindler, the author of Dorn, and wasn't aware of his other identity. It doesn't make much sense, but it's the only thing I can think of right now. You mentioned collecting data for a timeline of all the events, how much do you have done? Because I think we're at the point where we could really use one, so maybe you could send me what you have and we'd finish it together? I feel that this could clear up a lot of things :)

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 111 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61436564

08-24-2011 10:34 PM

Urasawa sort of looks like his artwork. :)

I opted for prettier instead of faithful a lot! :D At least, once I got more confident in what I was doing.

It turns out that the error was in the Spanish edition. The sentence was, ""There I met a man with glasses and a cruel expression, short and grotesque, like a Cupid who had sold his soul to the devil." I think you can see the problem there, even without seeing what it said in Japanese. :)

I now know I need to take this translation with a grain of salt (as people will have to take mine!). I mean, how many hours did I spend trying to find out that インドジシュスカー通 (Indojishusukā-dōri) was Jindřišská Street, and now I see that the Spanish translator just threw up his/her hands and skipped over it altogether! :-D ::facepalm::

But here's how they translated Chapek's parting shot to the boy.

Spoiler
The boy said he would be rich one day, and then we would see, but Chapek cut him off, saying, "And what are you going to do with the money? Money can only buy things. What you really want is to control a person's heart, right? But that can't be bought with money."

Compare that to, "The kid boasted that he'd get rich someday and show him. Then Chapek told him firmly, 'Money is worthless you know." Now, the Spanish version makes a lot more sense, as to why Milan thought that story odd and worth relating, but I swear to god, there is nothing in the Japanese about controlling or owning another person's heart (I even asked one of my native speaker helpers what it was that couldn't be bought with money, and he said it didn't say). Where did that come from? Do I put that in my translation? oO

Spoiler
That wasn't meant as a jab, to you or anyone. :) At the beginning of this thread, someone had said it would ruin everything if Johann woke up, and explained why quite reasonably. So I think they could be satisfied with their reading of the story and continue to think he's still in a coma. For all I know, he is. :)

I think you're right about Wiendler being an alias too. It just makes sense since he was hiding out at that time and was a spy when he was working in the West as well, so old habits and all. As for the rest of what you said, I'm still ruminating on that. ;)

Oh, and another reason not to leave the paper with the tape, it would have gotten all wet, since there was snow on the ground outside.

Johann didn't go after all the other reading circle kids because they didn't know him. That is, the K511 kids in his "class" were all dead except for Sievernich, who was having his own problems, and was sort of out of reach at the time anyway, and all the rest of the boys in the Mansion and previous K511 groups (except Grimmer) didn't know him from Adam. I really think that if Weindler had made himself known, and fanboyed Johann at the burning mansion, he would have shot him. :)

Here's the thing though. Somehow I don't see the two of them joining forces to go do more evil in the world. It seems like they both just wanted to disappear and have everyone forget about them. I don't think Johann will go on to try to destroy the world again, and as long as everyone who knows him (besides Tenma and Nina) or is looking for him is gone (I think Weber's toast, but Johann still might have to go deal with Seivernich), he's basically done. And Weindler didn't sound interested in going on a killing spree either. I think they are both at the point of looking for their own Ruhenheims. To either live in peace there, or end it for good and all.

The only sense of foreboding I get from the ending is not from Weindler or Johann, but from whoever the group was that was bought a thousand copies of "The Sleeping Monster" in 1998 for their reading circle...

What if it's not Johann, but Anna's missing twin's child, another product of the genetic experiments, which would explain the resemblance? It would also explain why he didn't write, "Gah! It's Johann!" If he didn't know his name, a sketch would be all he could do to get the point across (except that it obviously didn't...). ::headdesk::

I don't really have much of a timeline yet. Can you read Excel files?

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 112 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61461986

08-27-2011 10:33 AM

"There I met a man with glasses and a cruel expression, short and grotesque, like a Cupid who had sold his soul to the devil."

It kind of mixes up Capek and The Baby so it looks like they're one person. Your version ("There I met a small, funny man like a cherub, and a man with glasses and a cruel expression who had sold his soul to the devil."- this is the sentence you're talking about, right? :) ) is much clearer.

You did a better job than a professional translator! :D

I'd fix the part about Capek and the boy, though. It does make more sense and I think it's probable that Urasawa/Nagasaki just corrected that after the Japanese version was published.

I don't remember anyone explaining why Johann waking up would ruin the story, but I'll be sure to check and steal their arguments :D

Regarding Sievernich, for some time I couldn't figure out why Johann was helping him in the first place, since he's pretty much useless to him. I only recently realised that he was probably guiding him to the top to pit The Baby, Capek and Sievernich himself against each other. What do you think?

Spoiler
When I think about it, you're probably right about Weindler and the other K511 boys.

So, you think both Johann and Weindler want to retire and spend the rest of their lives as creepy recluses that the neighbor kids tell scary stories about? :D
I actually toyed with that idea a bit after I first finished Monster, and it's not a bad one, although I think suicide is just as likely.

It's possible that the group that bought The Sleeping Monster might be up to something, but for those stories to have any effect, they have to be read to the right kids under the right circumstances, and how likely is it that they have someone with Bonaparta's level of insight in their group? I think that if they're trying to create something, it'd still end as a failed experiment.

What if it's not Johann, but Anna's missing twin's child, another product of the genetic experiments, which would explain the resemblance? It would also explain why he didn't write, "Gah! It's Johann!" If he didn't know his name, a sketch would be all he could do to get the point across (except that it obviously didn't...).

Epileptic trees much? :-D

Yes, I can read excel files, no problem :)

For the next two weeks or so, I might be around a bit less and it may take me up to a couple of days to reply to each message. I'm terribly busy right now, but I'll be back after I've dealt with some stuff I have going on at the moment.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 113 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61496114

08-27-2011 04:07 PM

InTheGarden wrote:
Epileptic trees much? :-D

Think we should add to the wild mass guessing for Monster, or create a new section for AM? ;)

InTheGarden wrote:

Regarding Sievernich, for some time I couldn't figure out why Johann was helping him in the first place, since he's pretty much useless to him. I only recently realised that he was probably guiding him to the top to pit The Baby, Capek and Sievernich himself against each other. What do you think?

I think he was useful orginally as an extra set of hands to do Johann's work - getting him adopted into such a powerful family could only help. He might even have felt some actual friendship for him (like Karl, I don't think Johann faked his tears on the rooftop - he still did retain some human feelings after K511). But yeah, after he changed his mind about his goals, pitting them against each other in a death match was probably on his agenda.

While K511 was using Bonaparta's methods, he wasn't directly involved there, so if their program was as effective as it seemed to be, that could still be recreated without Bonaparta

Spoiler
(or Weindler, who I think was involved with that group).

No worries, I'm keeping busy with the revisions now. :)

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 114 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61496114

08-28-2011 05:22 PM

InTheGarden wrote:

Spoiler
So, you think both Johann and Weindler want to retire and spend the rest of their lives as creepy recluses that the neighbor kids tell scary stories about? :D
I actually toyed with that idea a bit after I first finished Monster, and it's not a bad one, although I think suicide is just as likely.

Spoiler
Johann would be surrounded by all the neighbor kids who would adore him. Weindler would attract sexually repressed psychopaths to sit at his feet and adore him. I think they'd both be happy in such a retirement. :)

But while I think Johann actually would find a nice place to retire while secretly stalking Nina, I think Weindler wanted to go out in a blaze of End Times with Johann, so he'd probably kill himself and wait for Johann to catch up.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 115 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to KrillXIII - Message ID#: 56598798

09-08-2011 11:55 PM

Well, here are my thoughts. ^_^

First of all, I liked the details about Eva given in her email. I never would have thought that she bothered that man as a test for Martin. I thought she just really wanted a drink. :P I also would have never guessed that she was actually trying to get him drunk to see what he was really like. So Eva assesses a person's character before getting close to them. I wonder if she performed the same kind of tests with Tenma? :O Anyway, I was somewhat apathetic towards Eva, but now I like her a little more. ;)

Also, I had always assumed that Martin had shot the man his girlfriend was cheating with out of revenge, but he actually shot his girlfriend's corpse. And he felt so guilty about her suicide that he went to prison. That's both incredibly sad and strangely silly at the same time.

I confess that one of the main reasons I had wanted to this was to read Grimmer's Notes and to find out about the Magnificent Steiner cartoon. And those chapters did not disappoint! I was actually a bit surprised as to how specific Bonaparta's plans really were. Johan accidentally became the kind of person Bonaparta was trying to create in the first place. :O And as for the Magnificent Steiner...it had a pretty crazy storyline for a 60s cartoon.

Spoiler
Especially the bad finale. Naziamerika? WTF? :D

I also think that there may be a typo. At the beginning of "Superman Steiner," it says that Weber was trying to call Helmut Voss. I'm assuming you meant Hermann Feuer. ...Unless that was in the Japanese version too. O_O

Now, on to the juicy stuff..

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 116 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61665298

09-10-2011 02:03 PM

TophBeiFong wrote:
First of all, I liked the details about Eva given in her email. I never would have thought that she bothered that man as a test for Martin. I thought she just really wanted a drink. :P I also would have never guessed that she was actually trying to get him drunk to see what he was really like. So Eva assesses a person's character before getting close to them. I wonder if she performed the same kind of tests with Tenma? :O Anyway, I was somewhat apathetic towards Eva, but now I like her a little more. ;)

About now (when she gets back) InTheGarden is thinking, "What the heck is she talking about?" :) Because she only has the first draft of my half-assed translation, and because I too had not seen it that way from the anime (and this was so early on, I wasn't using all the tools I learned to use later), I did not have that passage quite right. After reading the Spanish, and going back to the Japanese, I could see where I went wrong and fixed it to what you read.

And yes, thank you! That should be Hermann Feuer. Brainfart. =.=

Really, the Spanish translation is a godsend! I've found at least two places where I leaped over long sentences at a single bound during transcribing (until I rigged up a little T-square thingy to put on the page, I had trouble keeping my place between looking down at the page, looking up at the screen, and over to the keyboard), and one place where I transcribed it just fine, but skipped over two sentences when translating. That's why the Chapek and the kid story sounded so pointless in my version. :/

Still, I'm surprised at some things that are different, when it's not my stupid errors (which it is, 98% of the time). Like saying that the kids in Chapek's classes who didn't commit suicide became violent sexual offenders. I guess they didn't say exactly, but I thought those kids were like junior high age or younger (which is part of why their suicides and violence are so horrifying), and there is definitely no mention of sexual offenses in the Japanese, unless there's some obscure assumption or idiom that's lost on me. Also, some names have been changed for no apparent reason (although I was completely wrong on Vergud's name - it's Bargeld), and they translated (Charles) Keeping's name as Kipling. :)

@InTheGarden Speaking of Bargeld, this was where I skipped the sentences! William is Bargeld's first name, so I'm afraid our speculations about William Gaines were off the mark. :`( That being the case, it's hard to say whether BG Comics is a reference to EC or DC Comics.

And this is why I don't want my preliminary drafts to be widely circulated! :D I want to be able to keep track of who has it so that I can give them the update when it's all done.

Anyway, I had always thought Martin shot her boyfriend too (if he had not, wouldn't he have testified that she killed herself?), but I don't think AM said one way or another about him. The only reason he would have to shoot her again though, was to get gunpowder on himself (which shooting the bf would accomplish), and maybe an incriminating bullet angle. Or maybe to be able to truthfully say, "I shot her." I'll let you know if that's wrong when I get to that part (it's taking me almost as long to compare the versions and figure out where there are mistakes and whose they are, as the original translation did!).

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 117 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61665298

09-10-2011 03:16 PM

TophBeiFong wrote:
Now, on to the juicy stuff...

Spoiler
I'm not sure what to make of Anna. (IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME, MONSTER MOTHER!!!) On the one hand, all the stories have consistencies with what we know about her from the main series. All of them mention her being a college student, though Jana Kublikova didn't specifically say that she was going to Brno University. Which sort of lends credence to the theory that "Maruska" might be the missing twin, and she could have possibly been going somewhere else. (Really, I think someone would remember if two people who looked so much alike that they could be twins attended the same school.) But I'm not sure if I agree with that theory, and I'll get to that.

I'll assume that Ms. Kavanova, Mr. Kohout, and Hana Arnetova were referring to the same person. All three of those specifically mention someone going to Brno. The stories of the first two mentioned that the woman worked twice as hard as everyone else and that the woman had disappeared. Futhermore, Hana mentioned that the woman she knew was vacationing in Prague and Ms. Kavanova said that the woman had taken a vacation in Prague also. But what about "Maruska"? One thing that was mentioned was that she tried to cross the border once. This can be assumed to be when she tried to cross the border with Helenka. When Schuwald came to Prague looking for Helenka, she found the twins' mother instead. And she knew Helenka. "Maruska" also said that she had entrusted someone with a baby. I believe that she was lying about having twins on the off chance that someone would question Jana. So unless she found her sister and the sister gave her children to her, "Maruska" is the twins' mother. However, Peter Chapek specifically said that twins' mother was studying genetics at Brno University. So unless he was being deceived for some reason (doubtful), then all the stories were referring to the same person. Now, there is the question of why she was using the name Vierna. (Maruska can be explained as trying to mislead Jana.) Recall that Ms. Kavanova just said that her name was "something like Anna." Her name could have actually been Vierna, and Ms. Kavanova was misremembering. This is an interesting point, but her name is Viera (Věra), not Vierna, so without the "na" it seems less likely. Still...you might be on to something. But that would also mean that Vierna you mean Maruska? was telling the truth about Anna just being a stage name. Perhaps she chose that stage name in memory of her dead sister? But then there's Bonaparta's letter saying that her name was Anna... This is so confusing. @_@

One more wrench this monkey has to toss in...as I read the Spanish, it seems to be saying that all Viera's guilt about Anna's death was entirely self-inflicted rather than being heaped on her by Mommy Dearest. It's not obvious to me that that's what the Japanese actually says though, so I'm still wrangling with that.

Of course, if all of those stories really were talking about the same person, that doesn't mean that the other twin isn't out there. Bonaparta could have told the doctor to tell her mother that only one child could be saved as a part of an experiment. Afterward, the mother was put under anesthesia and one child was taken and put up for adoption. And perhaps the adopted child still doesn't know the truth. I wonder if this could be the "secret of the present" Weber was referring to. That's what I'm thinking. And I also think that all of this ambiguity about the names is another part of the identity theme in Monster. If all of them really are talking about Jomama, then her telling people different names, or saying her real name was an alias, is all part of the mind-f**k of not knowing who you are, which might be her state already, since Bonaparta has been involved in her life from conception. But I still feel there's another key we're missing, and it's gnawing at me just below where I can see it. >:/

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 118 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61682448

09-10-2011 10:36 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:

About now (when she gets back) InTheGarden is thinking, "What the heck is she talking about?" :) Because she only has the first draft of my half-assed translation, and because I too had not seen it that way from the anime (and this was so early on, I wasn't using all the tools I learned to use later), I did not have that passage quite right. After reading the Spanish, and going back to the Japanese, I could see where I went wrong and fixed it to what you read. She likes Eva, so I think she'll be pleased.

And yes, thank you! That should be Hermann Feuer. Brainfart. =.= You're welcome. ^_^

Really, the Spanish translation is a godsend! I've found at least two places where I leaped over long sentences at a single bound during transcribing (until I rigged up a little T-square thingy to put on the page, I had trouble keeping my place between looking down at the page, looking up at the screen, and over to the keyboard), and one place where I transcribed it just fine, but skipped over two sentences when translating. That's why the Chapek and the kid story sounded so pointless in my version. :/

Still, I'm surprised at some things that are different, when it's not my stupid errors (which it is, 98% of the time). Like saying that the kids in Chapek's classes who didn't commit suicide became violent sexual offenders. O_O Wow... I guess they didn't say exactly, but I thought those kids were like junior high age or younger (which is part of why their suicides and violence are so horrifying), and there is definitely no mention of sexual offenses in the Japanese, unless there's some obscure assumption or idiom that's lost on me. I wonder if the Spanish translators were adding their own interpretation. IIRC, Stefan Jost was a sexual serial killer, and he was from Kinderheim, so... Also, some names have been changed for no apparent reason (although I was completely wrong on Vergud's name - it's Bargeld), and they translated (Charles) Keeping's name as Kipling. :) Kipling would make more sense, LOL.

@InTheGarden Speaking of Bargeld, this was where I skipped the sentences! William is Bargeld's first name, so I'm afraid our speculations about William Gaines were off the mark. :`( That being the case, it's hard to say whether BG Comics is a reference to EC or DC Comics.

And this is why I don't want my preliminary drafts to be widely circulated! :D I want to be able to keep track of who has it so that I can give them the update when it's all done.

Anyway, I had always thought Martin shot her boyfriend too (if he had not, wouldn't he have testified that she killed herself?), but I don't think AM said one way or another about him. The only reason he would have to shoot her again though, was to get gunpowder on himself (which shooting the bf would accomplish), and maybe an incriminating bullet angle. Or maybe to be able to truthfully say, "I shot her." I'll let you know if that's wrong when I get to that part (it's taking me almost as long to compare the versions and figure out where there are mistakes and whose they are, as the original translation did!). I do think it's a bit odd. Most people wouldn't go that far if they blamed themselves for someone's suicide. Not even someone like Tenma, who should get the award for the most unnecessary guilt in anime and/or manga history.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 119 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61682994

09-10-2011 11:48 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:

TophBeiFong wrote:
Now, on to the juicy stuff...

Spoiler
Lemme get this straight. Klaus Poppe is either Johan and Nina's grandfather or their uncle. If he is the grandfather, then Lipsky is their uncle. If he's the uncle, then Lipsky is their cousin. And some people think that there was romantic subtext in Lipsky's and Nina's relationship...*eye twitch* LOL If I ever find a fic that ships Lipsky/Nina, I ought to leave a comment saying "NINA AND LIPSKY ARE RELATED!!!" Without any explanation. For teh lulz. Also, here's a WMG: Grimmer and Verdemann are half-brothers, and Grimmer was the result of a one night stand. Why? Just 'cuz. :P

The whole thing with Terner Poppe and Klaus Poppe is like a reverse Oedipus complex or something... I know what you mean. Like father like son. Except Terner Poppe didn't seem to be too bad of a guy, just very intimidating and maybe somewhat cold. Klaus Poppe/Franz Bonaparta...effed up beyond imagination.

Spoiler
I'm not sure what to make of Anna. (IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME, MONSTER MOTHER!!!) On the one hand, all the stories have consistencies with what we know about her from the main series. All of them mention her being a college student, though Jana Kublikova didn't specifically say that she was going to Brno University. Which sort of lends credence to the theory that "Maruska" might be the missing twin, and she could have possibly been going somewhere else. (Really, I think someone would remember if two people who looked so much alike that they could be twins attended the same school.) But I'm not sure if I agree with that theory, and I'll get to that.

I'll assume that Ms. Kavanova, Mr. Kohout, and Hana Arnetova were referring to the same person. All three of those specifically mention someone going to Brno. The stories of the first two mentioned that the woman worked twice as hard as everyone else and that the woman had disappeared. Futhermore, Hana mentioned that the woman she knew was vacationing in Prague and Ms. Kavanova said that the woman had taken a vacation in Prague also. But what about "Maruska"? One thing that was mentioned was that she tried to cross the border once. This can be assumed to be when she tried to cross the border with Helenka. When Schuwald came to Prague looking for Helenka, she found the twins' mother instead. And she knew Helenka. "Maruska" also said that she had entrusted someone with a baby. I believe that she was lying about having twins on the off chance that someone would question Jana. So unless she found her sister and the sister gave her children to her, "Maruska" is the twins' mother. However, Peter Chapek specifically said that twins' mother was studying genetics at Brno University. So unless he was being deceived for some reason (doubtful), then all the stories were referring to the same person. Now, there is the question of why she was using the name Vierna. (Maruska can be explained as trying to mislead Jana.) Recall that Ms. Kavanova just said that her name was "something like Anna." Her name could have actually been Vierna, and Ms. Kavanova was misremembering. This is an interesting point, but her name is Viera (Věra), not Vierna, so without the "na" it seems less likely. Still...you might be on to something. *facepalm* This is why I shouldn't read stuff late at night. I accidentally created a portmanteau name. Anyway, I think I found the missing twin. But that would also mean that Vierna you mean Maruska? I was going on the assumption that Viera is her real name. But maybe I should have put Maruska. It's confusing enough as it is. was telling the truth about Anna just being a stage name. Perhaps she chose that stage name in memory of her dead sister? But then there's Bonaparta's letter saying that her name was Anna... This is so confusing. @_@

One more wrench this monkey has to toss in...as I read the Spanish, it seems to be saying that all Viera's guilt about Anna's death was entirely self-inflicted rather than being heaped on her by Mommy Dearest. It's not obvious to me that that's what the Japanese actually says though, so I'm still wrangling with that. Just thought I'd throw this out there: Vanishing twin. but still somewhat relevant.

Of course, if all of those stories really were talking about the same person, that doesn't mean that the other twin isn't out there. Bonaparta could have told the doctor to tell her mother that only one child could be saved as a part of an experiment. Afterward, the mother was put under anesthesia and one child was taken and put up for adoption. And perhaps the adopted child still doesn't know the truth. I wonder if this could be the "secret of the present" Weber was referring to. That's what I'm thinking. And I also think that all of this ambiguity about the names is another part of the identity theme in Monster. If all of them really are talking about Jomama, then her telling people different names, or saying her real name was an alias, is all part of the mind-f**k of not knowing who you are, which might be her state already, since Bonaparta has been involved in her life from conception. But I still feel there's another key we're missing, and it's gnawing at me just below where I can see it. >:/ Bonaparta is a wizard? Anyway, I've got a bit of an odd WMG here (but considering the source...yeah, nothing can be too odd): Jomama (heh, I always liked that) was supposed to be named Anna. However, the mother was told that the baby she had was the other twin. Not only would that tie into what happened with Johan and Nina, but it would explain why Bonaparta said that her real name was Anna. I still wouldn't know why Jomama kept using different names, unless someone working for Bonaparta messed with her head as you suggested.

Spoiler
Now as for the Johan sketch...I think it's possible that Johan was impersonating Feuer/Weindler when he was on the phone with Weber. If he can imitate his sister's voice, why couldn't he make his voice sound deeper? (Actually, I think he could have gotten that from his mother, considering that she could imitate any female voice.) This would also explain the awkward pause earlier: He didn't realize until that point that Weindler and Feurer were one and the same! In trying to research Weindler, he could have ended up at the same place Weber did when Weber was researching Feurer. This does beg the question as to why he would allow Weber to sketch him, but perhaps Johan didn't know what he was doing. ...But here's the strange thing: If Johan escaped, wouldn't the hospital realize that someone is missing? o_O If he's missing, I don't think they'd want to publicize it and freak out the public all over again. :) Good point, LOL. If Johann was there alone, where did he get the manuscript? It could have been stolen, or Weindler gave it to him. But I think I've come up with something more sensible, which I'll get to below. Although what you suggest is plausible, I think specifically describing the sound of Wiendler's voice was Urasawa's way of telling us that it wasn't Johann. Maybe. *shrugs* My mind has been screwed.

Epileptic trees aside :-D , I'm actually starting to like my theory about the sketch being of the missing twin's child. Not only does it explain some plot holes like why sketch instead of write a message, but it also explains why Urasawa introduced the whole missing twin element in the first place. What purpose does that actually serve otherwise? If Weindler isn't the titular other monster, perhaps this young man is, and maybe he's the center around which the new reading circle was built. Then why would this child look exactly like Johan? Unless...THEY HAVE THE SAME FATHER!!! :O Perhaps Jodaddy slept with the other twin thinking that she was Jomama. o_O

Here's the real mass wild guessing! The Awakening Monster story describes this young man (who is also not implausibly named Johann - it's been shown that separated twins give their children the same names more often than chance) waking Johann up and being devoured by him, which is sort of a happy ending to the story. ;) Okay, here's my somewhat more sensible explanation for the ending: I had come across the translation for "The Awakening Monster" long before I made my request for AM. When I read it, I instantly connected it to the Sophie's choice Jomama made. The part about the woman looking for her child and the boy realizing that he was the most loved person in the world seems to be like how Johan may have been picked to be kept by Jomama. The significance of the monster waking up would be Johan becoming the monster. Maybe Johan met Weindler, told him his story, and Weindler was inspired by it. If we assume that the man was Weindler and the Johan sketch was his and not Weber's, this could be why Johan was sketched. Weindler may have gotten even more obsessed with him after hearing his story. However, this doesn't explain that awkward pause, but perhaps it was Weindler, and he was just surprised. EDIT: Actually, with the line "The name of the woman's child is the same as mine!" your WMG is acutally sounding...plausible...O_O

Spoiler
You mentioned that AM cleared up who "the cheery sweater guy" was. I don't recall reading anything that revealed that to me. I'm tired right now, and I don't feel like looking back through it. So could you tell me where you found it? page 278 (see, leaving in the page numbers is useful!) Ooooh. *facepalm* Why didn't I make that connection sooner? Heh, like we need another serial killer doctor. I still think that was a bit of a random scene but, I thought it was to show that Johan was serious about not playing around with people anymore and really was ready to commit the perfect suicide.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 120 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61690120

09-11-2011 01:50 AM

Quick reply before I go to bed.

TophBeiFong wrote:

Spoiler
Then why would this child look exactly like Johan? Unless...THEY HAVE THE SAME FATHER!!! :O Perhaps Jodaddy slept with the other twin thinking that she was Jomama. o_O

Spoiler
That's the thing - I don't think it does look exactly like Johann. You can chalk it up to him being older, it being a hasty sketch, and/or Weber's (or Weindler's) artistic skills, but that doesn't quite look like the Johann we know. For one thing, his hair looks a little wavy to me, and I don't think it's bed head (though it could be that the whole sketch looks a little wavy). It's just vague enough that it could be Johann, or it could be his brother, whichever Urasawa had in mind. :)

Maybe Jodaddy was simply told to sleep with the twin, before he fell in love with Jomama...

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 121 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61691462

09-11-2011 12:44 PM

One more bug I'd like to put in your ear while you consider the various scenarios re Anna. What might seem obvious to us, may not be to Weber. Perhaps we're trying to read more into it than is there, and he's just discovering all this stuff (that she left school, that she ran off with a boyfriend (well, he already knew that, I guess), that her records were expunged, that she try to cross the border as a child). Like Nina's chapter, we already know all that, but Weber was piecing it all together (for the benefit of anyone who was just reading the novel, I guess)

If I look at it like that, then I have to assume that

Spoiler
all four are talking about Jomama. This of course still leaves the mystery of the names... :/

And that makes the new info in that chapter stand out, and again I have to ask, what purpose did it have, unless it has some bearing on the ending?

Off to work on the translation again. :)

Filik10

Posts: 5
Registered: 06-06-2011
Message 122 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61694176

09-13-2011 05:24 AM

Hello! Sorry for being away for so long, life's been quite busy for me this summer and I spend most of it outside my house. But I read Gina's translation and there are few little questions that came to my mind - rather not the biggest topics discusted here, since I don't have anything new to add.

Spoiler
The story told in final episodes of Steiner is really similar to Bonnaparta's that much that I start to think if that guy Bargeld isn't Bonnaparta himself. After all we don't know what were he doing during airing the cartoon, and thge goverment could send him with some spying mission - or am I mising something?

Spoiler
I'm quite convinced that Terner Poppe was Johann and Anna's grandfather, it was just told in such a way that I can't get any other impresion.

Spoiler
I have a really hard time thinking about "The Awaking Monster". What is it dealing with? Am I the only one taht don't know? :P

Well, that's for now. Still, probably when I read it from the begining, and with the doublechecked (with Spanish translation) version form Gina I would have some more questions.
Again, thanks for your hard work Gina!

PS. It's the first time I'm researching ang thinking about tv show/comics/book that much since I found out Twin Peaks few years ago... "Monster" is just so exciting. ;)

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 123 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to Filik10 - Message ID#: 61715180

09-13-2011 09:53 PM

Yay, new blood! :D

Filik10 wrote:

Spoiler
Again, for InTheGarden, this is one of the areas the Spanish version showed me that I'd leaped over a couple of sentences. Bargeld approached Andrews around (if not during - timeline isn't precise on this) 1952, when the 2nd Steiner comic debuted. It's not clear if he just seeded the idea or helped write the comic as well as the cartoon (which started in 1959).

The other half of this puzzle is the massacre at Zweifelstadt in 1959. That really sounds like Bonaparta's work to me, so unless he was flying back and forth to Europe, or unless he popped in, gave them the inspiration for the new comic, went back, and then return to work on the series, I think Bargeld was probably only an emissary of Bonaparta's.

One problem is that we don't know exactly when Bonaparta was born, although we can guess he was in his early twenties during the love triangle with Jodaddymama, which I estimate to have been between 1945, when Terner was ~45 and 1950, when he stopped going out of his house (this too is unclear - Procházka says he was 45 around the time of the Pottsdam Agreement (1945), or else he meant when he was in the resistance, and also says he stopped going out after the 1948 coup, but also says he was around 50 when he shut himself up in his house.). This doesn't quite square with the idea that his father abandoned him though, since by the time Terner locked himself away, Bonaparta was old enough to be on his own, and left town. This is one of those areas where the timeline will come in handy, when we get it figured out!

Hmm, now that I wrote all that, from this, it seems like he would be too old to be the college aged "student" who instigated the massacre in 1959...well, maybe a grad student. On the other hand, ten years seems like a long time for him to be out of the country writing comics and cartoons instead of becoming the neurosurgeon/psychologist/psychiatrist darling of the Czech Communist Party.

Filik10 wrote:

Spoiler
I have a really hard time thinking about "The Awaking Monster". What is it dealing with? Am I the only one taht don't know? :P

Spoiler
I think that's as open to speculation as any of the other tales. :) See above for all the thoughts I have on it as of now.

The Sleeping Monster is also a conundrum for me. If it was unchanged from the story Wiendler originally told back in the Red Rose mansion, it seems to have foretold the K511 massacre at least 5 years before it came to pass.

My brain's fried. :) And I just realized (thankfully before I got any farther) that halfway through Capek's chapter I started making my revisions in an older version instead of the latest one, and since I have a tendency to bounce around a bit, I'm going to have to review the two drafts to see where I made changes in the old document. ::sigh:: I'm such an idiot.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 124 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61723268

09-14-2011 03:18 AM

It happens to the best of us. I wish you luck! /stillalivepost

InTheGarden

Posts: 17
Registered: 06-15-2011
Message 125 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61725958

09-14-2011 10:17 AM

Gina, thanks for the updates, especially the part about Bonaparta and The Magnificent Steiner- I remember writing somewhere in this thread that he was out of Jablonec around 1950, in time to be involved with Superman Steiner (I actually can't find it right now, so I'm not sure whether I actually wrote that or just intended to D: ). I'll see whether the new information supports the idea when I'm back for good, and hopefully start doing that timeline we talked about.

This is just a "I haven't died yet" post with a couple of random comments, since I still won't be around until the end of this month:

Spoiler
a) I think "Kipling" is a mistake on the Spanish translator's part- Charles Keeping makes definitely more sense, and I'm not saying this just because I loved his illustrations and didn't like The Jungle Book :P

b) Too bad it didn't turn out that way with William :(

c) On Terner or Klaus being Jodaddy's father and the subtext with Lipsky and Nina- yeah, it's creepy. But it is there, at least on Lipsky's part. Fridge Horror FTW. Plus, they didn't know they were related.

d) TophBeiFong- you were right, I can't wait to find out about the whole Martin business!

e) Something I just currently realised regarding the whole Jomama's name mess- Johann in his K511 tape says "please don't let me forget Anna". Now why would he call his sister that if their mother didn't? This seems to imply to me that in addition to running around Prague and lying to everyone about her name, she also decided to call her daughter with the same name she uses as an alias/the name of her dead sister/whatever. Unless this is a translation mistake, but I don't think so, since it's both in the manga and anime.

f) I'm having a hard time figuring out the exact date of the RRM massacre- in 1989 Capek says it was seven years ago, but Sobotka in his chapter claims it was in 1981, and after the seminars ended, it looked like the mansion was uninhabited for years. Assuming Capek meant precisely seven years, it seems to me like kind of a big disparity, since after the book reading sessions ended, Nina still had to be locked in her dark room for some time and then there was that killer party... I don't know what to make out of this at the moment. Gina, perhaps you were right that Franz's plan to free Nina was thought out way ahead.

I have a lot of other things I'd love to discuss, but they'll have to wait :(

In the meantime, don't have too much fun without me :D

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 126 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61727726

09-14-2011 11:09 AM

Heh, two "I'm alive posts. :) Good to know!

InTheGarden wrote:
d) TophBeiFong- you were right, I can't wait to find out about the whole Martin business! I should have mentioned that I was lost in space when I said I'd get back to you when I got there - that was in Chapter 20, and I've already gone over the Spanish on that, and it doesn't make it any clearer. Sorry. :/

e) Something I just currently realised regarding the whole Jomama's name mess- Johann in his K511 tape says "please don't let me forget Anna". Now why would he call his sister that if their mother didn't?

Spoiler
This seems to imply to me that in addition to running around Prague and lying to everyone about her name, she also decided to call her daughter with the same name she uses as an alias/the name of her dead sister/whatever.

Unless this is a translation mistake, but I don't think so, since it's both in the manga and anime.

I've always wondered about the coincidence of Anna sharing her mother's name when presumably Wolfe named her at the same time he named Johann. But maybe Johann told him to call her Anna, in rememberance of their mother (or an effort to keep his mother's name in his memory). That would kind of make that plea even more poignant, if he was trying to keep his mother as well as his sister in his memory.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 127 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to InTheGarden - Message ID#: 61727726

09-14-2011 11:37 PM

InTheGarden wrote:

Spoiler
a) I think "Kipling" is a mistake on the Spanish translator's part- Charles Keeping makes definitely more sense, and I'm not saying this just because I loved his illustrations and didn't like The Jungle Book :P I didn't know Keeping was an actual surname. Heh...^_^U

b) Too bad it didn't turn out that way with William :(

c) On Terner or Klaus being Jodaddy's father and the subtext with Lipsky and Nina- yeah, it's creepy. But it is there, at least on Lipsky's part. Fridge Horror FTW. Plus, they didn't know they were related. No, they didn't, but that does not make it any less creepy. :P Besides, it could have been a platonic sort of thing. Perhaps them being related sort of explained how they bonded so well. (Other than the fact that Bonaparta screwed up both of their lives, of course.)

d) TophBeiFong- you were right, I can't wait to find out about the whole Martin business!

e) Something I just currently realised regarding the whole Jomama's name mess- Johann in his K511 tape says "please don't let me forget Anna". Now why would he call his sister that if their mother didn't? This seems to imply to me that in addition to running around Prague and lying to everyone about her name, she also decided to call her daughter with the same name she uses as an alias/the name of her dead sister/whatever. Unless this is a translation mistake, but I don't think so, since it's both in the manga and anime. Interesting. There was that scene where Nina/Anna was asking Johan to say her name as they were crossing the Czech border. This seems to indicate that Nina/Anna still knew her name at that point. It may not have been Anna, but considering the info given about Jomama, she could have very well named her Anna after her dead sister. Which would also explain why she may have intended to send Johan to the RRM instead of Nina/Anna: If she were to give Nina/Anna up, it would be symbolically betraying her twin and would be almost as bad as having her die again.

f) I'm having a hard time figuring out the exact date of the RRM massacre- in 1989 Capek says it was seven years ago, but Sobotka in his chapter claims it was in 1981, and after the seminars ended, it looked like the mansion was uninhabited for years. Assuming Capek meant precisely seven years, it seems to me like kind of a big disparity, since after the book reading sessions ended, Nina still had to be locked in her dark room for some time and then there was that killer party... I don't know what to make out of this at the moment. Gina, perhaps you were right that Franz's plan to free Nina was thought out way ahead. My guess is that it happened near the end of 1981 or in the beginning of 1982. People don't remember exact dates, you know.

I have a lot of other things I'd love to discuss, but they'll have to wait :(

In the meantime, don't have too much fun without me :D I'll try not to, at least. And again, good luck with your exams! ;)

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 128 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61728172

09-14-2011 11:39 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:
Heh, two "I'm alive posts. :) Good to know!

InTheGarden wrote:
d) TophBeiFong- you were right, I can't wait to find out about the whole Martin business! I should have mentioned that I was lost in space when I said I'd get back to you when I got there - that was in Chapter 20, and I've already gone over the Spanish on that, and it doesn't make it any clearer. Sorry. :/ D: ...So, should what Eva said be taken with face value?

e) Something I just currently realised regarding the whole Jomama's name mess- Johann in his K511 tape says "please don't let me forget Anna". Now why would he call his sister that if their mother didn't?

Unless this is a translation mistake, but I don't think so, since it's both in the manga and anime.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 129 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61737604

09-15-2011 01:43 AM

TophBeiFong wrote:

Interesting. There was that scene where Nina/Anna was asking Johan to say her name as they were crossing the Czech border. This seems to indicate that Nina/Anna still knew her name at that point.

There was a big discussion about this in the Sci-Fi Monster thread here. I side with the faction that thinks this was a mistake on Viz's part. :)

TophBeiFong wrote:

InTheGarden wrote:

Spoiler
f) I'm having a hard time figuring out the exact date of the RRM massacre- in 1989 Capek says it was seven years ago, but Sobotka in his chapter claims it was in 1981, and after the seminars ended, it looked like the mansion was uninhabited for years (I got the impression he meant that it gave the appearance of having been abandoned for years, even though he'd just been there recently). Assuming Capek meant precisely seven years, it seems to me like kind of a big disparity, since after the book reading sessions ended, Nina still had to be locked in her dark room for some time and then there was that killer party... I don't know what to make out of this at the moment. Gina, perhaps you were right that Franz's plan to free Nina was thought out way ahead. My guess is that it happened near the end of 1981 or in the beginning of 1982. People don't remember exact dates, you know.

I had planned to comment on this earlier and forgot. I wonder if this is why the Spanish version left out the part about 7 years. Because I can't get that to add up with the rest of the dates either, unless he means that he didn't start being afraid until a year after it happened, or he got over it a year before he defected. :)

But your bringing up Sobotka rang a bell. Reread the story he tells about the door that should not be opened, and I think that answers the question of whether his change of heart was on the spur of the moment or not.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 130 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61738238

09-16-2011 01:43 AM

GinaSzamboti wrote:

There was a big discussion about this in the Sci-Fi Monster thread here. I side with the faction that thinks this was a mistake on Viz's part. :) Yes, I'm aware that Nina calling Johan by his future "name" of Johan during that scene was a translation mistake. (I was lurking, remember? :P) But that wasn't what I was talking about. What I was getting at was that Nina asked Johan to say her name in the first place. Why would she ask him to do that if she literally did not have a name? I always thought that Johan was speaking figuratively and not literally in that scene. (And since when is Johan ever straightfoward anyway? :P) Plus, Jomama claimed to have given them names. While it's not very clear if she meant that she gave them names against Bonaparta's wishes while she was in hiding or if she meant that she gave them names after the Sophie's choice, it could very well be the former. If they were given names, Johan's real name is probably not Johan. And Nina's real name...I think I explained my theory on that in my response to InTheGarden.

EDIT: But this does bring up the question as to why Wolfe had to name them, unless Johan said they didn't have names and Nina just went along with it. Or maybe they were actually starting to forget their names, and Nina was hoping Johan would remember hers...

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 131 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61750632

09-16-2011 10:49 AM

TophBeiFong wrote:

Or maybe they were actually starting to forget their names, and Nina was hoping Johan would remember hers...

That's pretty much what I had always figured. That or she thought Johann knew everything and wanted to have a name before she died.

I also thought Anna named them at birth, although she was told not to (can't recall for sure - didn't she tell Bonaparta before they were born that she had thought of names and he told her they didn't need names?), and kept that locked away in her head all those years. Maybe she did use those names during their hiding period, or maybe she made up different names to keep the original ones secret and safe.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 132 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 56598798

09-19-2011 09:50 PM

While Gina is busy updating her translation, I thought I would post some pics of three of the main characters as ponies. I used a pony creator I found on deviantART. They don't have cutie marks because ~~I'm horrible at drawing and only have MS Paint~~ they're nameless characters in a nameless world. Anyway...

Tenma (I kinda made his outfit look like the OP. Cookies to anyone who can figure out why I made him a pegasus. ^_^)
Johan (I tried replicating his "finger pointing to the head" pose with a hoof pointing to his head. I'm not sure it turned out very well. I made him a unicorn since his mind rape powers are like "magic.")
Nina (Give the Johan pony some eyelashes, change the type and color of the mane, turn a blank expression into a smile and poof, you got Nina. She's a unicorn also since she's Johan's twin.)

I might make more if I ~~feel like procrastinating~~ get bored.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 133 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61790972

09-19-2011 10:42 PM

This is almost as funny as Lego Tenma. :D Actually, the Tenma one is outstanding. I think Nina and Johann should be paler than their manes though. I do like the pointing at his forehead though. :)

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 134 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61791670

09-19-2011 10:55 PM

If I made Johan paler than his mane, he'd look like ghost. ...Actually, he really does sorta look like a ghost. XD

Anyway, if you want to imagine what sort of cutie marks (pictures on their flanks) I'd give them...

Tenma: Caduceus/Rod of Asclepius
Johan: Nameless monster head
Nina: Scales (since she wants to be a lawyer)

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 135 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61791808

09-30-2011 02:24 AM

To give people something to look at once more...

Eva (I dressed her up a bit, though unfortunately there wasn't an option for lipstick. I imagine her cutie mark would be a huge diamond or pearl or something. XD)
Lunge (I couldn't find a mane that fit his hairstyle, so just imagine that this is before he had a receding hairline. :P His cutie mark is a floppy disk, because I couldn't help but make a jab at that, and I made him stomp in order to somewhat mimic his "typing." I wanted to try to capture his utter creepiness, but with the cuteness of MLP, that was impossible. As a result, he looks waaaaay too friendly.)
Grimmer (He's green because I had to make a Hulk reference, and his cutie mark is an admittedly crudely drawn dormant volcano. [The lines aren't lava. Those are just for texture. Yes, I know I **beast** at drawing. That's why I googled pics for the others.] Since that makes a good metaphor and all that.)
Johan and Nina (I made their bodies lighter and it did turn out much better. Johan's cutie mark is from the cover of The Nameless Monster, while Nina's is Lady Justice.)
Happy Tenma (I felt sorry for the other Tenma I made, so I decided to make a happy one. XD He's having a good time flying! The cutie mark is a caduceus because I don't like the Rod of Asclepius.)

*flashback to 4 a.m.*

Didi from Rugrats: (insert my real name here), what are you doing?
Me: Making Monster ponies.
Didi: It's 4:00 in the morning, why on Earth are you making Monster ponies?
Me: Because I've lost control of my life.

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 136 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61903660

10-02-2011 06:13 AM

Er...sorry for triple posting. ^_^U

Anyway, there's something non spoilery that I wanted to discuss about AM. One of the things it makes a point about in Tenma's chapter was that he really didn't fit in Japanese society. When this was brought up in the series, I thought it was just Lunge jumping to the wrong conclusion again. But apparently it wasn't. So...what makes him so different? One thing they pretty much say directly about him is that he's a bit of a loner, but I can't help but think that there's something more to it than that, especially since he went to Germany instead of taking over his father's hospital. Any thoughts, oh great Gina? :D

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 137 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61925174

10-03-2011 12:18 AM

Hey, if I can post a couple dozen times in a row, so can you! :)

The ponies are hilarious. Tenma's mane/hair is perfect. I don't know how you got the Nameless Monster picture shrunk down that small and still maintained recognizability.

It might simply be that Tenma was predisposed to be a different sort of person than a "typical" Japanese, but I think his mother had something to do with it. Strangely enough, she favored the her husband's children from his previous marriage over her own son. Maybe she was reacting to his inherent differences, or maybe she just made him feel like an outsider in his own family, making it feel normal to him to be an outsider in his community and culture, or maybe it was a little of both, reciprocating until they were both behaving out of the expected norm.

Also, his father sounded like a pretty cold fish, whose sole concern for his sons was propriety and success. Given that Tenma really did like people and wanted to be included around them, living out his life under the microscope of his father's scrutiny and expectations must've seemed like prison, where Germany was freedom. Consider how disheartening it must've been to realize that Heinemann had him in a similar trap of following the social rules and keeping up appearances for political gain.

I think someone else mentioned that maybe Johann picked up the vibes of this result of Tenma's rejection by his mother (as well as the manipulative hand of his father for whom he was a tool to enhance his social standing and carry on his work) and it drew him to Tenma as someone who could understand him, beyond the fact of Tenma saving his life.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 138 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61935068

10-03-2011 01:21 AM

I'm finally up to Chapter 28 in the revision. In some ways it's a nice ego stroke to see that the official translator made some of the same kinds of mistakes I did, especially with dates (btw, the Zweifelstadt massacre was in 1958, not 1959), but sometimes I think I'm reluctant to dive in to see what new boneheaded mistakes I'm going to find. :/

I found another place where I neglected to translate a whole section. ::facepalm:: Knowing how this happens doesn't make me feel any better that it did. This one was important enough that I want to point it out instead of expecting the people who've read the first draft to find it later.

When Weber is going over Nina's journey, after describing how Mueller was killed saving Nina, Weber actually ends that section with something we've all wondered:

"It is not easy to understand why Roberto, Johann's faithful servant, wanted to kill Nina. But it's possible to guess, if we assume that it was his own initiative and not Johann's order. As might be expected from such a capable subordinate, he may have wanted to get rid of what he knew to be Johann's only weakness as soon as possible."

Also, fwiw, the text explicitly states that Bargeld defected from East Germany in 1951. Not sure how I skipped over the date like that. :/

One question that's come up is that the Spanish says that Kellerman (called Clement for reasons I can't figure out) admitted that he actually did plagiarize the first part of Sorcerer Kronos. While I can see how it might say that, I'm not yet convinced that it does - I'm going to have to ask around about this one. If the lawsuit was actually justified, then the tone of the narrative around it seems much more sympathetic to Kellerman than it ought to.

Also, though I'm sticking with what I have ("I could sense that the person on the other end was momentarily puzzled. After a pause lasting several seconds, they hung up the phone."), since it's ended up as part of the discussion about the ending, here's how the Spanish version put it: "On the other end the person who had picked up the phone hesitated a moment and then hung up."

The Japanese used was とまどった, which means to be bewildered or perplexed or at a loss. So I do think that the point was more puzzlement in the person who answered the phone rather than simply pausing to decide whether to answer or hang up, but I thought y'all ought to know.

Do with this information what you will. :)

Finally, when you get the updated version, do re-read Grimmer's chapter. I've done the man a disservice - he was being much more clever in his information gathering than my translation errors have given him credit for. ;D

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 139 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61935068

10-03-2011 01:09 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:

Hey, if I can post a couple dozen times in a row, so can you! :)

The ponies are hilarious. Tenma's mane/hair is perfect. I don't know how you got the Nameless Monster picture shrunk down that small and still maintained recognizability. What's even more amazing was that I used Paint. You know, it's kind of odd that the pony maker had manes that matched both Tenma's and Johan's hair. Maybe the creator is a fan. :P

It might simply be that Tenma was predisposed to be a different sort of person than a "typical" Japanese, but I think his mother had something to do with it. Strangely enough, she favored the her husband's children from his previous marriage over her own son. Maybe she was reacting to his inherent differences, or maybe she just made him feel like an outsider in his own family, making it feel normal to him to be an outsider in his community and culture, or maybe it was a little of both, reciprocating until they were both behaving out of the expected norm. I wish there was a bit more explanation as to why Tenma's mother treated him like that, but I have my theories. Maybe she didn't want to treat Tenma better just because he was her son and at the same time, she wanted the other two children not to feel left out. Maybe it was because she thought that Tenma didn't really need her, since they said that he didn't need much outside assistance as a child. (These two reasons may be why she wanted his older brother to take the hospital. She thought the brother needed it more than Tenma, since Tenma was more talented and had better grades, so he could easily find employment elsewhere.) Maybe she was more strict with him because she had higher expecations of him. Or maybe she just didn't understand him.

Also, his father sounded like a pretty cold fish, whose sole concern for his sons was propriety and success. Given that Tenma really did like people and wanted to be included around them, living out his life under the microscope of his father's scrutiny and expectations must've seemed like prison, where Germany was freedom. Consider how disheartening it must've been to realize that Heinemann had him in a similar trap of following the social rules and keeping up appearances for political gain. You know, I've played with the idea that maybe Heinemann was sort of a surrogate father figure to Tenma. Perhaps something in that paper Tenma read spoke to him, and he thought he had found a kindred spirit. ...Too bad Heinemann used ghostwriters.

I think someone else mentioned that maybe Johann picked up the vibes of this result of Tenma's rejection by his mother (as well as the manipulative hand of his father for whom he was a tool to enhance his social standing and carry on his work) and it drew him to Tenma as someone who could understand him, beyond the fact of Tenma saving his life. I didn't see Tenma's father as manipulative. I just thought it was a societal thing. But when you put it like that, he does sound manipulative. With parents like that, where on earth did Tenma get his kindness and altruistic tendencies from? ...You know what? Maybe THAT'S what makes him different. Verdemann said that he thought Tenma was strange because he was more concerned with stopping Johan than proving his own innocence. So Tenma is a weirdo because he cares too much. :-D And I think the Johan angle is interesting. They're opposites, yet they both have issues rooted in the same things. (Well, sorta. Tenma's experiences weren't nearly as bad Johan's, but if Tenma went through something more extreme, I highly doubt he would become nearly as warped as Johan.) It's just that they each took different paths because at their cores, they're two entirely different people.

I think here would be a good point to speculate on why I think Tenma was different. For one, Japanese society is highly traditional and hierarchal. While Tenma isn't exactly the "rebellious" sort, he is someone who follows his own conscience rather than do what is socially acceptable. He's quite egalitarian in outlook, so maybe he dislikes the hierarchy of Japanese society. Perhaps he felt, even at a young age, that everyone deserved the same respect as those who are regarded as being "higher" in status. Also, a point was made that Tenma didn't like groups, despite the fact that he's a pretty sociable guy. Perhaps he simply prefers one on one. Or perhaps he felt like his voice wasn't always heard. Or maybe he disliked groupthink. Or maybe he simply thought of groups as being divisive. I'm not sure what it really is, but for some reason, I think they were implying that Tenma didn't really relate to Japanese culture. Especially with this quote: "Japanese aren't suited to be independent, so we don't like to acknowledge the lone wolves in our midst. That's why Tenma never really fit in."

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 140 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 61935420

10-03-2011 01:25 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:
I'm finally up to Chapter 28 in the revision. In some ways it's a nice ego stroke to see that the official translator made some of the same kinds of mistakes I did, especially with dates (btw, the Zweifelstadt massacre was in 1958, not 1959), but sometimes I think I'm reluctant to dive in to see what new boneheaded mistakes I'm going to find. :/ From what I heard, Japanese is a tough language. Give yourself a pat on the back for not being as bad as Babelfish. :P

I found another place where I neglected to translate a whole section. ::facepalm:: Knowing how this happens doesn't make me feel any better that it did. This one was important enough that I want to point it out instead of expecting the people who've read the first draft to find it later.

When Weber is going over Nina's journey, after describing how Mueller was killed saving Nina, Weber actually ends that section with something we've all wondered:

"It is not easy to understand why Roberto, Johann's faithful servant, wanted to kill Nina. But it's possible to guess, if we assume that it was his own initiative and not Johann's order. As might be expected from such a capable subordinate, he may have wanted to get rid of what he knew to be Johann's only weakness as soon as possible." That always bugged me. Glad to finally have an answer. Though didn't Roberto say he wanted to go after Tenma next after that incident? Maybe he saw Tenma as a weakness too. But when he was talking to Lunge, he said that he knew Johan wanted Tenma to see the end. I guess Johan filled him in between the time Tenma was treating that former money laundering syndicate guy (the one he had lunch with outside) and right before the library thing, since IIRC, Roberto was either trying to kill him then or was hoping Eva would kill him.

Also, fwiw, the text explicitly states that Bargeld defected from East Germany in 1951. Not sure how I skipped over the date like that. :/

One question that's come up is that the Spanish says that Kellerman (called Clement for reasons I can't figure out) admitted that he actually did plagiarize the first part of Sorcerer Kronos. While I can see how it might say that, I'm not yet convinced that it does - I'm going to have to ask around about this one. If the lawsuit was actually justified, then the tone of the narrative around it seems much more sympathetic to Kellerman than it ought to. I wonder if the idea for all these conflicts with The Magnificent Steiner came from Urasawa's experience with Master Keaton

Also, though I'm sticking with what I have ("I could sense that the person on the other end was momentarily puzzled. After a pause lasting several seconds, they hung up the phone."), since it's ended up as part of the discussion about the ending, here's how the Spanish version put it: "On the other end the person who had picked up the phone hesitated a moment and then hung up."

The Japanese used was とまどった, which means to be bewildered or perplexed or at a loss. So I do think that the point was more puzzlement in the person who answered the phone rather than simply pausing to decide whether to answer or hang up, but I thought y'all ought to know.

Do with this information what you will. :) My theory is now that whoever answered the phone had multiple personalities.

Finally, when you get the updated version, do re-read Grimmer's chapter. I've done the man a disservice - he was being much more clever in his information gathering than my translation errors have given him credit for. ;D Look forward to reading that. Can't have too many reasons to love Grimmer. < 3

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 141 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 61937844

10-09-2011 04:10 AM

*inserts double post*

Something I thought about but didn't post for some reason...

Spoiler
I had always thought that The Magnificent Steiner was simply a normal cartoon and Kinderheim just happened to be using it for brainwashing purposes. So when Grimmer wasn't allowed to see the last episode, they knew that it would ruin everything. It was a kids show, so I believed that it had to end on a positive note, which would undermine the purpose of Kinderheim. With the information provided by AM, however, it looks like I was probably both wrong and right. If Bargeld was a spy, then it may have been very possible that he was working on The Magnificent Steiner for the 511 Kinderheim project. The endeavour was undertaken in the U.S. for both the purpose of avoiding suspicion and perhaps as a mass experiment on brainwashing U.S. children. Bargeld made the final episode behind Andrews' back as a covert effort to bring the project to the desired conclusion. However, it was caught by the management, and the experiment failed. Andrews' version of the finale was what was aired in Europe. Considering this, the officials either learned about it at the last minute or Grimmer was told not to watch the show but sneaked and did it anyway. ...All of this puts a whole new perspective on Grimmer's flashback.

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 142 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62001844

10-12-2011 12:12 AM

Spoiler
I always assumed that they knew he was watching it (I thought they might even have gone so far as to produce it themselves), but made sure he missed the last episode. But it was kind of a shock to realize that it had been made in America and exported to Germany. :) Ironically, once I fixed the translation about Bargeld, I was apparently right that they produced it themselves, in a way, since it seems the premise was his idea for the most part, and he wrote all the episodes.

And I totally agree with your idea about them using it as an experiment here. That's what was so creepy about that chapter. It was like watching the tendrils of this evil spreading out over the world. It sort of sounded like Bargeld was caught off guard by the sudden decision to end the series, and instead of continuing the subtle build-up of evil that people were sensing but unable to define, he went all out to put the whole message in that final episode, which was the plan's undoing. When that much crazy was thrown out all at once, it couldn't help but be seen for what it was.

The "Final I Hope Draft" should be in the mailboxes of those who asked for it. If I overlooked you, PM me.

As it turns out, the passage about Anna's mother was mistranslated by both me and the Spanish TL. I had half of it right, he had half of it right. :) And it turns out that Kellerman did plagiarize after all. That makes me sad. :(

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 143 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62035790

10-12-2011 06:27 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:

Spoiler
I always assumed that they knew he was watching it (I thought they might even have gone so far as to produce it themselves), but made sure he missed the last episode. I really need to learn how to avoid ambiguity in my posts. ^_^U What I meant was that they might have told Grimmer not to watch the last episode because they found out about Andrews' ending being the one sent to Germany, but Grimmer tried to do it anyway and got caught. Either way, Grimmer watching TMS was definitely part of the plan. But it was kind of a shock to realize that it had been made in America and exported to Germany. :) Ironically, once I fixed the translation about Bargeld, I was apparently right that they produced it themselves, in a way, since it seems the premise was his idea for the most part, and he wrote all the episodes. That just makes it 10 times worse...

And I totally agree with your idea about them using it as an experiment here. That's what was so creepy about that chapter. It was like watching the tendrils of this evil spreading out over the world. It sort of sounded like Bargeld was caught off guard by the sudden decision to end the series, and instead of continuing the subtle build-up of evil that people were sensing but unable to define, he went all out to put the whole message in that final episode, which was the plan's undoing. When that much crazy was thrown out all at once, it couldn't help but be seen for what it was. Especially Naziamerika. :P Semi-random thought: Perhaps the message was that the Americans and their allies were no better than the Communists and were, in fact, similar. American children and children from other countries opposed to communism would become will become confused and intellectually malleable. Meanwhile, the Kinderheim kids would both be taught how to use this argument to break people. This would involve some doublethink, but the Kinderheim kids would also be taught to embrace being a "monster," since it will look like that there's no other choice anyway. Yay for exposing kids to moral nihilism! :P

EDIT: Someone had the same idea about Monster and MLP as I did and took it to its logical conclusion. o_o;;

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 144 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62043600

10-16-2011 02:06 PM

I really need to learn how to avoid ambiguity in my posts.

Spoiler
Perhaps the message was that the Americans and their allies were no better than the Communists and were, in fact, similar. American children and children from other countries opposed to communism would become will become confused and intellectually malleable. Meanwhile, the Kinderheim kids would both be taught how to use this argument to break people. This would involve some doublethink, but the Kinderheim kids would also be taught to embrace being a "monster," since it will look like that there's no other choice anyway. Yay for exposing kids to moral nihilism! :P

There was nothing ambiguous about what you said, I just sort of reiterated it. :)

As for the rest of your comment, good call. See "The Man with the Big Mouth, The Man with the Big Eyes," i.e., when given a choice, it makes no difference which you choose, so you need to be the demon who's offering the choices. :)

Ok, this could be a game-changer. Or not.

Spoiler
Originally I thought that (in Weber's summary of the convoluted story in Chapter 30) Bonaparta had found the mother while she was still pregnant. However, that does not seem to be the case after all. The sentence should read, "Among them all, his favorite was a young girl who was said to have been a twin while in her mother's womb."

Actually, the Spanish TL says, "Among them, he was especially interested in one who said she lost her twin sister at birth." However, it's not her that's saying this, and the sentence says nothing directly about the fate of her twin. I guess one could infer the twin's death since she was only said to be a twin while in the womb, but the sentence doesn't flat out say so. The way it's written, while apparently not unusual in and of itself, just seems to me to be going out of its way to avoid saying the other twin died.

So I can't tell if it's Urasawa withholding a definitive statement on this (maybe it's just a tactful way to express it), or if he can't because Weber doesn't really know either. It makes sense for Weber to avoid clearly saying she died, after Hana's testimony that Viera thought she was still alive.

This also suggests he heard about her after she was born. Which would mean he didn't steal away the other twin at birth, although it doesn't mean someone else didn't. We can only assume that Weber doesn't know enough to speculate about that.

So what to make of this? On one hand, with Weber as the narrator, I think we need another witness to confirm that the twin isn't dead. Hana's hearsay about it isn't much to go on. But as I said before, if it's not important, why does Urasawa even bring it up? The only certain point to Anna being a twin is that Bonaparta would be interested in the possibility of her having twins herself for him to work with, since twins tend to run in families. Her sister's death would just be a narrative convenience, like shounen heroes' all having dead parents so we don't have to wonder why they're on their own, and/or to give them some angst about it. She's a twin, yay, but no need to think too hard about her sister, whew.

But then why have Hana throw in that wrench about her thinking she was still alive? If she's wrong, what's the point of that in terms of storytelling? Are we to think she's a little mad, even though Hana insists she's not? Is Viera being haunted by twins telepathy from beyond the grave? She clearly seems to have some "I am you and you are me" going on just like her children, who are both alive.

Are you ready for some seriously wild mass guessing? :) The scenario we had imagined about Bonaparta taking the child at birth happened, but Weber refuses to speculate on that since he doesn't really have enough information to even suggest it. A child was born to her as well, and she also named him Johann, as her sister had done. Like the Johann we know, he favors his mother, though his father was also "quite attractive...tall and muscular, with a handsome face." He hated having his picture taken and never allowed even one. He was also Bonaparta's best student in the reading circles, so he'd be a natural choice later on when he and the missing twin were old enough to enter the program... >.>

Food for thought, or at least seasoning sprinkled on in Chapter 16:
— And what of the other children who were taken away?
"Are you asking of the possibility that there could be another Johann? Let us pray there is not."

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 145 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62085148

10-24-2011 03:56 AM

I finally got around to looking at this again. I hate to do this to you, but I found two typos. The first is near the bottom of page 42. You put "saud" instead of said. The second is on page 46. In the third paragraph, you left out the word "phone" in one of the sentences. ...Why do I have to be so observant? @_@

It's kinda weird seeing Hermann Fuer instead of Hermann Feuer. I'm not sure I caught what was different about Grimmer's Notes, though. Could you point that out? (I deleted the earlier copy.) Anyway...

GinaSzamboti wrote:

Spoiler
Are you ready for some seriously wild mass guessing? :) The scenario we had imagined about Bonaparta taking the child at birth happened, but Weber refuses to speculate on that since he doesn't really have enough information to even suggest it. A child was born to her as well, and she also named him Johann, as her sister had done. Like the Johann we know, he favors his mother, though his father was also "quite attractive...tall and muscular, with a handsome face." He hated having his picture taken and never allowed even one. He was also Bonaparta's best student in the reading circles, so he'd be a natural choice later on when he and the missing twin were old enough to enter the program... >.> Sorry to throw a wrench into this, but the missing twin would have to be the same age as Jomama. In Anna II, Ms. Kavanova said that Jomama would be almost 50. Johan is around 26, which means that Jomama would have been 23 or 24. Fuer was in his early forties in 1992. So in 2001, he would be in his fifties. So he couldn't be Jomama's nephew. Here's a crazy WMG if there ever was one, though: What if Bonaparta didn't kill Johan's father? What if he brainwashed him instead and gave him an important government position? Or maybe he just continued working in the military? (It just said that he graduated from the Red Rose Mansion to wo Futhermore, what if he started to regain his memories, found out that Jomama was hiding in the Three Frogs, and then found out about the Red Rose Mansion massacre and thought that Jomama was dead, causing him to lose his grip on reality? Or maybe it went like this: He escaped somehow, faked his death, and became a spy in order to find Jomama. After finding out that she was "killed" he started to forget some things, which is why he only remembered his work as a spy and not a soldier. Johan might have been there with Fuer, which is why there is a sketch. However, Weber began to mark it out once he was caught.

Spoiler
As for Jomama, I've come up with two separate explanations, both assuming that Anna is her real name. The first one is that Anna, whie on her travels, was found by Bonaparta. He had learned through some spying about her having a twin in the womb. He then brainwashed her into thinking that her name was Viera. Viera was, in fact, the name intended for the dead twin and not Anna. This was relatively easy to do, as she had at least partially, merged her identity with that of her hypothetical sister. This was done not only for experimental reasons, but also to add a double layer of secrecy. With destroyed records at Brno and Anna going by a different name, no one could ever find her. She was then sent to Prague. Once she gave birth and later escaped, she told Jana that her name was Maruska either as a deliberate attempt to hide her identity or to dissociate herself from the whole situation. If it was the former, she could have actually still believed that her name was Viera. The "secret of the present" may be, in fact, the clue to Anna's location. She may still be going under the name Viera. Or maybe the missing twin is indeed alive, but people are keeping their mouths shut so she cannot be mistaken for Anna.
The second one is a bit crazier. Anna, before going to Prague, was having a bit of an identity crisis. She was trying to decide as to whether or not she should be a teacher or a geneticist. She actually wanted to be a teacher, but she believed that her sister would have wanted to be a geneticist. This didn't make her lose her mind, but something else could have: She saw her sister! This would have normally been a healing experience, but for Anna, it was just the opposite. On some level, she believed that she didn't deserve to live. If her sister was alive, then she no longer had a reason to exist. However, she didn't want to kill herself.
Therefore, she went into a sort of fugue state and created her own identity: Viera. This way, she could be both alive and dead at the same time. This would explain her belief that her sister was alive somewhere. And this was all orchestrated by Bonaparta as an experiment. The possible explanations for the use of Maruska as an alias are the same as the above. The "secret of the present" in this scenario is likely that the missing twin is alive and the reason for protecting her could be the same as above. But what if there's something more sinister to this?

Yes, I do believe I'm insane. :-D

I wonder, since Tenma had to have done some investigating to find Anna, how much he actually knows. Could he have declined the interview not just because he was busy and/or for privacy reasons, but because he too keeping this "secret of the present"?

Also, I found something interesting posted on TV Tropes Fridge page. (And I dare not link to it for the sake of the spare time of anyone reading this thread.) It said that neurosurgeons choose to become neurosurgeons to suppress homicidal urges. Basically, this is Freud's concept of sublimation. I don't think this theory would apply to Tenma (or would it? O_O), but I wonder about Bonaparta. Could he have tried being a doctor in order to transform some of his darker impulses, since he already has some Freudian stuff going on already? Or was it more of a morbid interest in the human brain? (I think most of Freud's theories are a load of bull, but since this is fictional, why not speculate? :P) Also, InTheGarden PMed me on TVTropes about a week ago. She said she'll be posting back here soon. (But as to when, I do not know. She said that she would post something the night after she sent me the PM, but she hasn't yet. Maybe something else came up...)

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 146 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62166050

10-24-2011 11:25 AM

TophBeiFong wrote:
I finally got around to looking at this again. I hate to do this to you, but I found two typos. The first is near the bottom of page 42. You put "saud" instead of said. The second is on page 46. In the third paragraph, you left out the word "phone" in one of the sentences. ...Why do I have to be so observant? @_@

It's kinda weird seeing Hermann Fuer instead of Hermann Feuer. I'm not sure I caught what was different about Grimmer's Notes, though. Could you point that out? (I deleted the earlier copy.) Anyway...

I'm glad you're so observant! Thanks for catching the typos! Better now than when it's out for everyone to see. I wonder why spell check didn't catch "saud." Even if it thinks it's the king of Saudi Arabia, it should have flagged it for not being capitalized.

I know how you feel about Fuer/Feuer. The original translator as well as the Spanish TL had it Fuer, but I thought it ought to be Feuer, since that seemed to be the more common spelling, and it means Fire, whereas Fuer doesn't seem to mean anything, other than just being a derivative of Feuer. :) However, I listened to the German pronunciations of both spellings, and Fuer turned out to more closely match how the katakana would be pronounced, so for that reason, and the sake of consistency with the earlier chapters, I changed it back.

The main changes in Grimmer's chapter were regarding the people he met.

Spoiler
I kept thinking it was odd that the editor he met with was an editor in New York at the time, and it turns out that was not describing the editor, but Grimmer! Likewise, when touring the city scouring bookstores, he didn't meet with children's editors, he met with people claiming that he was an editor. That is, he was flying under more assumed identities than just the tax official and the French name, and I assume with the accents and fluency to match his identities. What a good spy he must've been! ;)

TophBeiFong wrote:

GinaSzamboti wrote:

Spoiler
Are you ready for some seriously wild mass guessing? :) The scenario we had imagined about Bonaparta taking the child at birth happened, but Weber refuses to speculate on that since he doesn't really have enough information to even suggest it. A child was born to her as well, and she also named him Johann, as her sister had done. Like the Johann we know, he favors his mother, though his father was also "quite attractive...tall and muscular, with a handsome face." He hated having his picture taken and never allowed even one. He was also Bonaparta's best student in the reading circles, so he'd be a natural choice later on when he and the missing twin were old enough to enter the program... >.> Sorry to throw a wrench into this, but the missing twin would have to be the same age as Jomama. In Anna II, Ms. Kavanova said that Jomama would be almost 50. Johan is around 26, which means that Jomama would have been 23 or 24. Fuer was in his early forties in 1992. So in 2001, he would be in his fifties. So he couldn't be Jomama's nephew. Here's a crazy WMG if there ever was one, though: What if Bonaparta didn't kill Johan's father? What if he brainwashed him instead and gave him an important government position? Or maybe he just continued working in the military? (It just said that he graduated from the Red Rose Mansion to wo I think something got lost here. Futhermore, what if he started to regain his memories, found out that Jomama was hiding in the Three Frogs, and then found out about the Red Rose Mansion massacre and thought that Jomama was dead, causing him to lose his grip on reality? Or maybe it went like this: He escaped somehow, faked his death, and became a spy in order to find Jomama. After finding out that she was "killed" he started to forget some things, which is why he only remembered his work as a spy and not a soldier. Johan might have been there with Fuer, which is why there is a sketch. However, Weber began to mark it out once he was caught.

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, but it looks like you almost came to the same conclusion, if I'm reading you right. :)

TophBeiFong wrote:

Spoiler
As for Jomama, I've come up with two separate explanations, both assuming that Anna is her real name. The first one is that Anna, whie on her travels, was found by Bonaparta. He had learned through some spying about her having a twin in the womb. He then brainwashed her into thinking that her name was Viera. Viera was, in fact, the name intended for the dead twin and not Anna. This was relatively easy to do, as she had at least partially, merged her identity with that of her hypothetical sister. This was done not only for experimental reasons, but also to add a double layer of secrecy. With destroyed records at Brno and Anna going by a different name, no one could ever find her. She was then sent to Prague. Once she gave birth and later escaped, she told Jana that her name was Maruska either as a deliberate attempt to hide her identity or to dissociate herself from the whole situation. If it was the former, she could have actually still believed that her name was Viera. The "secret of the present" may be, in fact, the clue to Anna's location. She's at that nunnery or sanitarium where Tenma visited her. That's not a mystery. She may still be going under the name Viera. Or maybe the missing twin is indeed alive, but people are keeping their mouths shut so she cannot be mistaken for Anna. I would agree with this.
The second one is a bit crazier. Anna, before going to Prague, was having a bit of an identity crisis. She was trying to decide as to whether or not she should be a teacher or a geneticist. She actually wanted to be a teacher, but she believed that her sister would have wanted to be a geneticist. I really like this explanation of her ambivalence. This didn't make her lose her mind, but something else could have: She saw her sister! This would have normally been a healing experience, but for Anna, it was just the opposite. On some level, she believed that she didn't deserve to live. If her sister was alive, then she no longer had a reason to exist. However, she didn't want to kill herself.
Therefore, she went into a sort of fugue state and created her own identity: Viera. This way, she could be both alive and dead at the same time. Schrödinger's Twin? This would explain her belief that her sister was alive somewhere. And this was all orchestrated by Bonaparta as an experiment. The possible explanations for the use of Maruska as an alias are the same as the above. The "secret of the present" in this scenario is likely that the missing twin is alive and the reason for protecting her could be the same as above. But what if there's something more sinister to this? Like what?

Yes, I do believe I'm insane. :-D

I wonder, since Tenma had to have done some investigating to find Anna, how much he actually knows. Could he have declined the interview not just because he was busy and/or for privacy reasons, but because he too keeping this "secret of the present"? That's my feeling. :)

InTheGarden going to have a lot of reading to do when she gets back... ^.^

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 147 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62168274

10-24-2011 06:23 PM

GinaSzamboti wrote:

The main changes in Grimmer's chapter were regarding the people he met.

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at, but it looks like you almost came to the same conclusion, if I'm reading you right. :)

Spoiler
I can see that it looked like I was describing the other Johann after the quoted description of his father, but I was still talking about Fuer/Weindler. I was suggesting that he could be the father of the "other Johann," the hypothetical son of the missing twin. Were you saying that he could be Johann's father? At least we agree that his age fits either scenario. :D LOL, I thought you were implying that Fuer/Weindler was the other Johan and would be the father of our Johan...which doesn't make much sense, since apparently I forgot that Fuer's mother couldn't possibly be the other twin. XD

The more I think about it, the more I think Weber figured this out (while his brain what whirring like a computer) while he was on the phone with him, since where do hotels put notepads for their guests? By the phone. It may not have been intended as a message, but as an artist's memo to himself, since while sketching it he didn't know that Weindler would be coming over right then. It would be easier to draw what he imagines this other Johann would look like than to write out words while talking to someone and listening to them in a match of wits. That is, it would be easier to doodle than to write words. It could have been his own notepad. Still, I like this theory. ^_^

I do have a problem with your scenario on literary grounds though. It requires that Weindler faked his death not once, but twice, and that's overkill, so to speak. :) I think the faked death in The Magnificent Steiner is a sort of foreshadowing of Weindler's faked death, but to have that be a plot point (indirect though it may be) a second time, especially for the same person, is one faked death too far. Then again, Urasawa does such things (see the 11+ characters abandoned by their wives/gfs, and Johann's penchant for arson at every opportunity), so you do have grounds to entertain that theory. ;) And entertain I shall. :D

However my other complaint with that theory is that it would invalidate the entire story. All of this seems to have been sparked (well, all of it after Bonaparta's daddy issues) by Anna's single-minded quest for vengeance for the death of her lover, causing her to instill that hatred into her children so they could carry it out for her. If he wasn't really dead, that would make it all for nothing, and while I sometimes like that sort of ironic, tragic futility, it doesn't work for me here, especially since she never finds out that it was all for nothing. Well, it's a matter of taste, I suppose.

I might as well drop my correction here. What I meant to put in my OP was something along these lines: "It just said that he graduated from the Red Rose Mansion to work for the old regime, not what kind of work he did. He could have very well been a soldier. And while it is implied that it was the first time Bonaparta had seen the mother since he was a young man, she could have been sending him to the Red Rose Mansion without knowing who was behind it."

I seem to have a lot of problems when typing in spoiler tags. Sometimes when I press enter, it separates them when I don't want them to. So I had to do a lot of copying and pasting to get it right. Also, I had a perfectly good post, but an error occurred. Luckily I copied most of it just in case something happened.

TophBeiFong wrote:

Spoiler
As for Jomama, I've come up with two separate explanations, both assuming that Anna is her real name. The first one is that Anna, whie on her travels, was found by Bonaparta. He had learned through some spying about her having a twin in the womb. He then brainwashed her into thinking that her name was Viera. Viera was, in fact, the name intended for the dead twin and not Anna. This was relatively easy to do, as she had at least partially, merged her identity with that of her hypothetical sister. This was done not only for experimental reasons, but also to add a double layer of secrecy. With destroyed records at Brno and Anna going by a different name, no one could ever find her. She was then sent to Prague. Once she gave birth and later escaped, she told Jana that her name was Maruska either as a deliberate attempt to hide her identity or to dissociate herself from the whole situation. If it was the former, she could have actually still believed that her name was Viera. The "secret of the present" may be, in fact, the clue to Anna's location. She's at that nunnery or sanitarium where Tenma visited her. That's not a mystery. We know, but how many people in-universe know? ;) She may still be going under the name Viera. Or maybe the missing twin is indeed alive, but people are keeping their mouths shut so she cannot be mistaken for Anna. I would agree with this.
The second one is a bit crazier. Anna, before going to Prague, was having a bit of an identity crisis. She was trying to decide as to whether or not she should be a teacher or a geneticist. She actually wanted to be a teacher, but she believed that her sister would have wanted to be a geneticist. I really like this explanation of her ambivalence. This didn't make her lose her mind, but something else could have: She saw her sister! This would have normally been a healing experience, but for Anna, it was just the opposite. On some level, she believed that she didn't deserve to live. If her sister was alive, then she no longer had a reason to exist. However, she didn't want to kill herself.
Therefore, she went into a sort of fugue state and created her own identity: Viera. This way, she could be both alive and dead at the same time. Schrödinger's Twin? *ba dum tish* This would explain her belief that her sister was alive somewhere. And this was all orchestrated by Bonaparta as an experiment. The possible explanations for the use of Maruska as an alias are the same as the above. The "secret of the present" in this scenario is likely that the missing twin is alive and the reason for protecting her could be the same as above. But what if there's something more sinister to this? Like what? Maybe something happened to the twin too. But as to what, I don't know where to start.

Yes, I do believe I'm insane. :-D

I wonder, since Tenma had to have done some investigating to find Anna, how much he actually knows. Could he have declined the interview not just because he was busy and/or for privacy reasons, but because he too keeping this "secret of the present"? That's my feeling. :) It sure gives a much better excuse for Tenma not being included.

*posts in red so it will be impossible to miss* So what about Bonaparta's possible Freudian issues? I guess that got lost in the excitement. XD

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 148 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62172584

10-24-2011 07:05 PM

I just ran out of time before I had to go to work. :)

I'm afraid to go look it up, but on what do they base this theory of neurosurgeons being subconscious psychopaths? :) I certainly hope that's the exception rather than the rule!

I always figured that Bonaparta became a neurosurgeon so he could tinker with people's heads in a more hands-on way. On one hand, he dug the psychological tinkering, but he must also have wanted to study how the physiological side could be employed to achieve his manipulative ends more directly.

But not much is really made of his surgical work, if he ever actually did more than complete the requirements to pass the exams. It always seemed to me that they piled way too much onto Bonaparta than would be humanly possible. How many years does it take to get through med school? Then more schooling to become a psychologist/psychiatrist. Then more schooling to become a neurosurgeon. Even for a genius, that's a lot of years adding up, AND all the while he's moving up in the Party hierarchy and becoming a leader. Not to mention the time he had to patiently spend creating and running his program and testing his theories and destroying his father. When did he find the time to do all this?

Bonaparta's secrets of time management are what I need to know about!

TophBeiFong

Posts: 145
Registered: 09-05-2011
Message 149 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to GinaSzamboti - Message ID#: 62172952

10-24-2011 10:15 PM

Well, the person who posted that said he heard it from his girlfriend, and someone else followed up by saying that psychoanalysis supports the idea. To be more precise, it's called sublimation. An example listed by this site lists surgeons as an example. Still, I have to wonder what kind of person would have a "deep desire" to cut people... Anyway, Freud is said to have gotten the idea from a story about a surgeon who cut puppy dog tails as a child. I agree with you that it is the exception rather than the rule, if the concept is even valid in the first place. I think Freud may have studied more abnormal people than normal people. I think some of his ideas are interesting, such as the concept of the id, ego, and superego, the unconscious mind, and maybe a few of the more sensible sounding defense mechanisms, but much of the other stuff just sounds crazy to me. Oedipus complex? The stages of psychosexual development? Er...yeah, I think I'll pass.

I was thinking much of the same thing about Bonaparta. I think he was fascinated by the mind and wanted to study it from every angle, if only because he wanted to manipulate it. I just wanted to post what I found to see what you thought about it.

LOL, yeah Bonaparta must have had superhuman time mangagement skills. I could actually believe that he studied psychiatry/psychology, ended up as a government official because of his knowledge, and wrote storybooks in his spare time. Neurosurgeon seems a bit tacked on. Maybe he studied both at the same time just because he's cool like that. :P

Still, look at some of the other characters' histories in terms of well-roundedness. Tenma was able to learn German within a year to the point that he could understand medical terminology and somehow learned enough English to at the very least hold a conversation and translate a menu. (He could have learned it in Japan, but Japanese schools are terrible at teaching English. Either they were better in the past, or Tenma had a tutor.) Johan was more intelligent than most adults at the age of 10, and knows English, French, Latin, and who knows what other languages. Not to mention that he was able to kill Heinemann and the other two doctors at Eisler Memorial without a hitch and somehow predicted that Heinemann and the other doctors would go back for more candy. And his godly manipulation skills. And his ability to plan for just about anything so as to avoid ever being proven guilty. To a lesser degree, we have Dr. Reichwein, who worked as a police doctor and on the border patrol and then went back to college at 40 to become a successful psychology professor and therapist.

Apparently, Urasawa likes to make his characters Renaissance men. :P

GinaSzamboti

Posts: 27,612
Registered: 09-16-2003
Message 150 of 529

Re: Another Monster
Reply to TophBeiFong - Message ID#: 62174722

10-25-2011 10:49 PM

The others don't really bother me because I think they're possible at least. Immersion is the fastest way to learn a language, and Tenma was immersed, plus he spent a year cramming before entering German med school. Remember that he was learning a good deal of his medical terminology in German in the first place, so it wasn't like he had to learn all of it over again. Also the majority of scientific journals are written in English, so he would probably have brushed up on his English (and learning German would help him with that I think) since he was interested in research, as much or maybe more than actually practicing.

A friend of mine got his PhD in the US and then went to his home country for a post-doc interview and had to give a presentation of his research there. It wasn't until the last minute that he realized he couldn't give the presentation in his native language, because he'd always talked about it in English and didn't know how to say all the technical stuff in his own language. Fortunately, they all spoke pretty fluent English too, and didn't hold it against him. :)

Did Reichwein have to go back for more schooling at 40, or did he just transition into the academic side of his profession? That does seem a bit late to get anywhere career-wise, especially at a major university, but maybe he just had the connections to get a teaching job for a class or two, and eventually started his own practice when he saw that was sort of a dead-end since it would be too late to get tenure or a full professorship (that takes years).

Then again, I don't know all the details of how all that works in Germany. It might be a completely different system than it is in the US. :)

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